#94: Post-Tribal Shamanism: Healing the Invisible World with Kenn Day
What if the disconnection, addiction, and grief so many of us struggle with aren’t just personal struggles, but signs of something deeper—what Kenn Day calls the “invisible world”?
In this episode of Beyond the Pills, host Josh Rimany, pharmacist turned healer, sits down with Kenn Day, author of Post-Tribal Shamanism, to explore how ancient wisdom can meet modern life in transformative ways.
Kenn has spent over thirty years studying and practicing shamanism. His journey has led him to craft a unique path—post-tribal shamanism—that thrives outside the confines of traditional tribal frameworks while remaining rooted in reverence, ritual, and the soul’s calling. From Cincinnati, where he has run a full-time shamanic practice since 1989, Ken has guided countless individuals to heal soul hunger, restore connection, and rediscover the living spirit in all things.
Early in the conversation, Kenn reminds us that shamanism isn’t something you choose—it chooses you:
“The nature of shamanism is that we are called by spirit. And that’s something that happens before we’re born.”
This idea reframes healing as more than self-help—it’s a remembrance of something far older, a reawakening to the soul’s true path.
For Kenn, shamanism isn’t only for those who feel “called” to be shamans. It’s for anyone seeking to reconnect with a deeper sense of reality:
“If you have any interest in expanding your sense of reality, in connecting with the myriad spirits that surround you, and in having a positive, supportive relationship with the world around you—these are all good reasons.”
Kenn emphasizes that animism—the recognition that everything, from a tree to your morning coffee cup, is alive and imbued with spirit—isn’t superstition. It’s a way of seeing the world that restores meaning, connection, and hope in a culture often starved of soul.
Listeners will discover how post-tribal shamanism offers practical tools for today’s challenges: healing from disconnection, finding wholeness in grief, and even restoring integrity in business and leadership. As Ken explains, his work isn’t about escaping the modern world but transforming it:
“My work is not about returning to the past, but evolving shamanic practice through our post-tribal lives.”
This approach makes shamanic wisdom accessible—not as a relic of history, but as a living, breathing practice for anyone willing to listen, engage, and be transformed.
Throughout the episode, Josh and Ken dive into powerful stories of spirit encounters, the surprising ways shamanism can emerge in everyday life, and how reconnecting with the invisible world can heal not only individuals but families, communities, and organizations.
If you’ve ever felt the gnawing of soul hunger, or sensed there’s more to life than what meets the eye, this conversation will meet you where you are. It will invite you into a deeper way of living; one rooted in spirit, authenticity, and courage.
Tune in to Beyond the Pills and join host Josh Rimany as he and Kenn Day explore post-tribal shamanism, the healing of invisible wounds, and the restoration of soul connection in our modern world.
👉 Subscribe now to never miss an episode, and share this conversation with someone ready to remember the wisdom of spirit in their own journey.
Transcript
Hello, hello.
Speaker:Welcome back to Beyond the Pills.
Speaker:This is a space where we
Speaker:explore healing through body, mind,
Speaker:and spirit and soulful depth.
Speaker:I'm your host, Josh Remini,
Speaker:pharmacist turned healer.
Speaker:Today's episode is a deeply
Speaker:personal and powerful one
Speaker:for me because we're
Speaker:welcoming a colleague, a guide,
Speaker:a kindred spirit, Ken Day.
Speaker:He's the author of Post-Tribal Shamanism.
Speaker:Ken has devoted over thirty
Speaker:years to honoring the
Speaker:soul's calling to healing,
Speaker:studying all forms of shamanism,
Speaker:crafting a living modern
Speaker:shamanic path that thrives
Speaker:outside of the tribal frameworks.
Speaker:In a world of disconnected
Speaker:from our ancestors, earth, spirit,
Speaker:Ken has helped us heal what
Speaker:he calls the invisible world.
Speaker:The soul hunger fueling addiction, grief,
Speaker:and disconnection.
Speaker:His work is not about
Speaker:returning to the past,
Speaker:but evolving shamanic
Speaker:practice through our post-tribal lives.
Speaker:He's based in Cincinnati,
Speaker:where my wife is from.
Speaker:And Ken has maintained a
Speaker:full time shamanic and
Speaker:healing practice since in
Speaker:the nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker:He's leading transformative workshops,
Speaker:author of many books,
Speaker:which I've read and
Speaker:cultivating a revival of
Speaker:animism and spiritual
Speaker:integrity in the West.
Speaker:Today,
Speaker:we're going to explore what post
Speaker:tribal shamanism truly means,
Speaker:how it differs from the
Speaker:traditional models and how
Speaker:Ken is weaving soul ritual constellation
Speaker:and healing into our modern
Speaker:landscapes and even in
Speaker:business let's lean in and
Speaker:begin welcome to the show
Speaker:my friend thank you good to
Speaker:be here oh I'm so excited
Speaker:this is a a long time
Speaker:coming and at the same time
Speaker:perfect timing uh we've
Speaker:connected on many levels
Speaker:over the years we share
Speaker:friends uh and I've
Speaker:gone on my own journey of
Speaker:studying energy medicine in
Speaker:most of the places of
Speaker:indigenous shamanism.
Speaker:So let's get started.
Speaker:Can you just share with us like the first,
Speaker:what first called you into
Speaker:shamanic service and how
Speaker:your journey has evolved
Speaker:into this post-trial way?
Speaker:Okay, well, to begin with,
Speaker:I would say that it began
Speaker:long before I can
Speaker:put a name to it before I
Speaker:did put an end to it.
Speaker:The nature of shamanism is
Speaker:that we are called by spirit.
Speaker:And that's something that
Speaker:happens before we're born.
Speaker:You know, in Mongolia, they talk about how,
Speaker:you know, before people are born,
Speaker:when you look up at the tree of life,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:all the people who are going to
Speaker:be born is regular human
Speaker:beings are over on one big branch,
Speaker:and then the shamans have
Speaker:their own branch.
Speaker:Now,
Speaker:whatever that means and whether that
Speaker:has any impact on us here in the West,
Speaker:I'm not really sure.
Speaker:But it does seem to point to
Speaker:the fact that the shamans
Speaker:kind of tap you before you
Speaker:actually are born into this body.
Speaker:So grandfather,
Speaker:which is what I call my first own God.
Speaker:I'm sure has been with me
Speaker:since before I was born.
Speaker:And I can go into that a lot
Speaker:more as we go forward.
Speaker:But just to answer your question,
Speaker:first thing I want to do is say, you know,
Speaker:when people come to me and say, Well,
Speaker:what if I'm not interested
Speaker:in becoming a shaman,
Speaker:or I haven't been called by
Speaker:spirits become a shaman?
Speaker:Why would I want to take these workshops?
Speaker:Why would I want to read your book?
Speaker:I said, Well,
Speaker:if you have any interest in
Speaker:expanding your sense of
Speaker:reality your sense of what
Speaker:is if you have any interest
Speaker:in connecting with the
Speaker:myriad spirits that
Speaker:surround you and having a
Speaker:good positive informative
Speaker:and supportive experience
Speaker:and relationship with the
Speaker:world around you these are
Speaker:all good reasons it used to be that
Speaker:Most people who went through
Speaker:my series of workshops had
Speaker:not been called to be shamans.
Speaker:And so they became really good animists,
Speaker:you know, and animism is simply that,
Speaker:that strange idea that everything,
Speaker:absolutely everything, including,
Speaker:you know, your,
Speaker:your coffee cup or whatever,
Speaker:they're all alive and imbued with spirit.
Speaker:So when we wake up in the morning,
Speaker:we have the opportunity to
Speaker:engage with an entire world
Speaker:full of spirits and life.
Speaker:And a lot of what I do in my
Speaker:workshops and my work with
Speaker:clients is helping people
Speaker:to recognize that, engage with that,
Speaker:and be supported by that relationship.
Speaker:But you asked,
Speaker:what is my background with it?
Speaker:I didn't realize it was
Speaker:called shamanism for quite some time.
Speaker:It wasn't until I would say
Speaker:probably the early eighties
Speaker:when I was reading a book
Speaker:by Mircea Eliade called Shamanism,
Speaker:Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy.
Speaker:And I had just been
Speaker:exploring for years and I
Speaker:was getting ready to start
Speaker:art school and was still
Speaker:looking for something that
Speaker:made sense because all I
Speaker:knew is that when I would try to meditate,
Speaker:I would sit there and almost inevitably,
Speaker:as soon as I got into a
Speaker:deep meditative trance,
Speaker:It felt like this other
Speaker:entity popped up alongside me.
Speaker:It felt like an old guy with
Speaker:long gray hair and kind of
Speaker:a snarky smile.
Speaker:And it took me the longest
Speaker:time to recognize that that
Speaker:wasn't just a figment of my imagination,
Speaker:that that was actually an
Speaker:entity in its own right.
Speaker:And that is the sort of
Speaker:thing that is very
Speaker:difficult for us Westerners
Speaker:to really grasp.
Speaker:For sure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Go through that a little bit in your mind.
Speaker:Because as you're building that up,
Speaker:you're doubting yourself a little bit.
Speaker:It's a figment of my imagination.
Speaker:But I think a lot of people think like,
Speaker:I would say at this point
Speaker:our listeners are pretty
Speaker:attuned to things like
Speaker:consciousness and the grid and quantum,
Speaker:but in your own words,
Speaker:express this so people can
Speaker:see it because this is what you do.
Speaker:This is how I love reading
Speaker:your books and talking with
Speaker:you is you explain it in this new way,
Speaker:in this modern-ish way.
Speaker:Well, one of the things I can say is
Speaker:First of all,
Speaker:I'm working on my third book
Speaker:on shamanism.
Speaker:And one of the things that
Speaker:I'm pointing to are all the
Speaker:various myriad obstacles
Speaker:that those of us who are
Speaker:called to this path by the
Speaker:spirits in the West have to deal with.
Speaker:And one of the biggest is
Speaker:the Western mental
Speaker:perspective on materialism.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:that everything is defined by
Speaker:your physical senses.
Speaker:And our physical senses are great.
Speaker:And it's not to diminish them in any way.
Speaker:But when I first realized
Speaker:that the teachings that I
Speaker:was getting from this
Speaker:long-haired guy who was
Speaker:sitting next to me when I
Speaker:meditated weren't just for me, but...
Speaker:Let me preface this by saying,
Speaker:by the time I was getting
Speaker:ready to go to art school
Speaker:in the early eighties,
Speaker:I was already deeply depressed, anxious,
Speaker:had undiagnosed PTSD.
Speaker:That was a mess.
Speaker:I'd had a very interesting childhood.
Speaker:And this is often the case
Speaker:with people who are called shamans.
Speaker:But that's, we'll get to that, I'm sure.
Speaker:Yeah, definitely want to get to that.
Speaker:So one of the first things
Speaker:that happened was,
Speaker:I had a couple of people who said, Well,
Speaker:can we notice that you're
Speaker:not as difficult to be around lately?
Speaker:What are you doing?
Speaker:Oh, well,
Speaker:there's this stuff that I've been
Speaker:doing when I'm meditating.
Speaker:He said, Well, can you show us?
Speaker:I thought, I don't know, let's try.
Speaker:And
Speaker:one of the first things well
Speaker:okay first of all the first
Speaker:teaching that I ever
Speaker:received from mass from uh
Speaker:grandfather from shespa
Speaker:from my first on god was
Speaker:very simply there is only
Speaker:one center it just happens
Speaker:to be everywhere which
Speaker:completely blew my mind
Speaker:once I let it in it still
Speaker:kind of blows my mind
Speaker:It is so fundamental a
Speaker:teaching that now I see it
Speaker:all over the place.
Speaker:Most spiritual traditions
Speaker:eventually get around to saying that.
Speaker:That was the first thing
Speaker:that I remember receiving
Speaker:from Grandfather.
Speaker:One of his next teachings, though,
Speaker:was this idea that, well,
Speaker:you can go into this other realm.
Speaker:I didn't call it the spirit
Speaker:world yet because I didn't
Speaker:have reference for that.
Speaker:But he talked about opening
Speaker:my inner doorways and going
Speaker:through into this other realm.
Speaker:And so when these people started asking,
Speaker:I had a couple of friends
Speaker:who were asking about this and I said,
Speaker:okay, so follow this.
Speaker:And I led them.
Speaker:first of all,
Speaker:through their heart center
Speaker:into pure consciousness, essentially,
Speaker:into the spiritual body.
Speaker:And from there,
Speaker:it had them create a mirror
Speaker:and then go through,
Speaker:send a beam of light
Speaker:through that mirror into their reflection,
Speaker:follow that through,
Speaker:and there's this weird
Speaker:sensation you get when
Speaker:you're actually going through the mirror.
Speaker:of kind of turning inside
Speaker:out and backwards at the same time.
Speaker:And then you're continuing
Speaker:on into your reflection.
Speaker:And once you emerge in your reflection,
Speaker:then you can go through the
Speaker:heart-centered doorway there.
Speaker:And when you expand outward,
Speaker:you're in your shamanic body.
Speaker:You are in the area in the
Speaker:spirit realm that's right
Speaker:next to the world tree.
Speaker:So I led people through this,
Speaker:and one of them said, well,
Speaker:what's with the tree?
Speaker:I was like, whoa, you sense the tree?
Speaker:You see, he saw the tree,
Speaker:which I never did.
Speaker:I'm not very visual when it
Speaker:comes to the spirit realm.
Speaker:But they were aware of the
Speaker:tree and that was my first
Speaker:recognition that, oh,
Speaker:so this isn't just me.
Speaker:This is something that is
Speaker:actually to be used by any human being.
Speaker:And that was a real awakening.
Speaker:But the interesting thing
Speaker:was that as soon as people
Speaker:started experiencing that sense of, oh,
Speaker:my consciousness is not
Speaker:only resident in my body,
Speaker:and I have another way
Speaker:besides dreaming to
Speaker:experience things outside it.
Speaker:And once they realized that
Speaker:this wasn't creative visualization,
Speaker:and don't get me wrong I
Speaker:love creative visualization
Speaker:it's a wonderful and
Speaker:powerful tool but it
Speaker:happens in here right and
Speaker:well early on I discovered
Speaker:that the best way to get it
Speaker:across to people what this
Speaker:was relative to to create a
Speaker:visualization was first of
Speaker:all have them before they
Speaker:do anything else just
Speaker:visualize a really big tree
Speaker:big oak tree now move that
Speaker:six feet to the left
Speaker:No problem.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And we go through those
Speaker:inner doorways into lodge
Speaker:and that's that space
Speaker:around the world tree,
Speaker:introduce them to the world tree.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Now move that six feet to the left.
Speaker:So far after, you know,
Speaker:like forty five years of practice, nobody,
Speaker:including me,
Speaker:hasn't been able to budge the world tree.
Speaker:Doesn't happen.
Speaker:The point is that world tree is there.
Speaker:It was there before you were born.
Speaker:It will be there long after you're gone.
Speaker:And so what we're doing is
Speaker:actually experiencing
Speaker:something that's really there.
Speaker:People will often ask the question, well,
Speaker:yes,
Speaker:but is what I'm experiencing there real?
Speaker:And what they're really saying is,
Speaker:is it just like this?
Speaker:Is it the same kind of
Speaker:experience that I have in
Speaker:my physical body?
Speaker:No, of course not.
Speaker:You're not in your physical body.
Speaker:You're in your shamanic body.
Speaker:You're in an alternate
Speaker:vehicle for consciousness.
Speaker:If instead you ask the question,
Speaker:do these experiences have a
Speaker:profound and lasting impact on my life?
Speaker:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker:Without doubt.
Speaker:And so you,
Speaker:This has become the
Speaker:foundation of what we do in
Speaker:post-traumatic shamanism.
Speaker:We help people come to the
Speaker:kind of awakening,
Speaker:the kind of radical egoic
Speaker:initiations that arise from
Speaker:this kind of experience.
Speaker:So that sense of the ego has of, oh,
Speaker:wait a minute, I'm outside of my body.
Speaker:and I'm not dreaming and I'm
Speaker:not just imagining something,
Speaker:I'm going to have to expand
Speaker:my whole sense of awareness, right?
Speaker:I'm going to have to expand
Speaker:my sense of what is real.
Speaker:And that can be for some
Speaker:people really devastating
Speaker:and for some people really exciting.
Speaker:So it really depends on how
Speaker:you are as an individual,
Speaker:how you respond to that.
Speaker:One of the other really big
Speaker:things is we have this
Speaker:thing in shamanism called wind horse,
Speaker:and from that we build what
Speaker:we call medicine body,
Speaker:which is cultivating enough
Speaker:of that jing shen,
Speaker:that wind horse energy that
Speaker:allows you to support your
Speaker:consciousness beyond your physical body,
Speaker:outside of your head,
Speaker:and you expand this out into
Speaker:the space around your body
Speaker:and then you extend your
Speaker:consciousness into that
Speaker:field and all of a sudden
Speaker:you have to deal with your
Speaker:ego has to deal with being
Speaker:beyond the parameters that
Speaker:it had defined as self and
Speaker:once again this is you know
Speaker:it has a tendency to bring
Speaker:about some real awakening
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:I think that's where I think we are
Speaker:in the stage of our existence as humanity,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Is like where this awakening
Speaker:is starting to envelop.
Speaker:And I'm starting to hear it
Speaker:from different angles and
Speaker:different places.
Speaker:And here's a great example of, you know,
Speaker:the spirit you downloading
Speaker:or getting this information
Speaker:at an early age of this,
Speaker:like the concept of like,
Speaker:The part is the whole and the oneness,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Like the ascending out of
Speaker:the body and into, you know,
Speaker:you can always put the
Speaker:science and the ancient to
Speaker:these conversations.
Speaker:This is why we have them in
Speaker:different ways because it's,
Speaker:Some people need to get it
Speaker:from like quantum physics
Speaker:and some people need to get
Speaker:it from this realm of spirit.
Speaker:And it's all energy.
Speaker:It's this energy body that
Speaker:we're talking about, the shamanic body.
Speaker:And I love how you.
Speaker:You eloquently talk about, you know,
Speaker:the shaman sort of having
Speaker:one foot in both places at the same time.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That's kind of what I
Speaker:experienced in different
Speaker:healing indigenous practices.
Speaker:When I've been looking at shamans,
Speaker:I'm just I would notice
Speaker:them effortlessly through
Speaker:their work and through their work.
Speaker:whether they were using
Speaker:plant medicines or other
Speaker:energy modalities.
Speaker:But I would notice them in that, of course,
Speaker:they've done all this
Speaker:initiation and
Speaker:apprenticeship through this.
Speaker:And I want to talk about that, too.
Speaker:But it was this effortless dance in both.
Speaker:And it was just I could see it.
Speaker:I could feel it.
Speaker:And I was been so enamored
Speaker:with that from just in this
Speaker:awe that we have.
Speaker:I told you on one of our
Speaker:connection calls the other week is like,
Speaker:I just turned fifty and
Speaker:it's like this whole new
Speaker:world has been opened to me.
Speaker:It's like, oh,
Speaker:I feel I feel like I have
Speaker:like maybe a third to a
Speaker:half of what I've learned.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Because I've studied all
Speaker:this stuff in this body and in this mind.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Neuroscience, meditation,
Speaker:functional medicine,
Speaker:traditional pharmacy like
Speaker:and this whole realm of energy medicine,
Speaker:which called me
Speaker:Oh, about eight, ten years ago, it's like,
Speaker:oh,
Speaker:I feel like I need to learn more about
Speaker:this thing called energy.
Speaker:I call the energy medicine at the time.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Which brought me to some of
Speaker:our mutual friends and you
Speaker:and like and it just started building.
Speaker:And then I want you to talk
Speaker:a little bit about how you
Speaker:align with spirit, but also how.
Speaker:spirit aligned with your
Speaker:path as you kept moving
Speaker:through this process?
Speaker:Because I feel like that's
Speaker:sort of the keys to these things.
Speaker:Well, that's a great way to start.
Speaker:I would say that the biggest
Speaker:impact that spirit has had
Speaker:has been in defining what I
Speaker:can do and what I can't do.
Speaker:And what I mean by that is...
Speaker:that grandfather had some
Speaker:very specific ideas of what
Speaker:he wants me to do and some
Speaker:very clear ideas of what he
Speaker:doesn't want me to do.
Speaker:And he became very clear
Speaker:early on that he did not
Speaker:want me to become a
Speaker:traditional therapist or a
Speaker:bartender or a teacher or any of that.
Speaker:And
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I was actually an art director for
Speaker:a while when I was in my
Speaker:early twenties and that did not work.
Speaker:And I had to drop that.
Speaker:And the best indication of
Speaker:this was when I was in my
Speaker:early thirties and I was
Speaker:still struggling with it.
Speaker:I still was trying to make
Speaker:sense of the fact that what
Speaker:I was doing was called
Speaker:shamanism and that I was
Speaker:actually a shaman.
Speaker:I was really struggling with
Speaker:that and I was trying to
Speaker:come up with a run around
Speaker:with grandfather's idea
Speaker:that I couldn't be a
Speaker:traditional therapist.
Speaker:I said, okay,
Speaker:so how about if I design my
Speaker:own practice and my own
Speaker:university degree and I get
Speaker:this degree and that allows
Speaker:me to be certified as a
Speaker:counselor or something.
Speaker:So I went up to Antioch
Speaker:College and got a chance to
Speaker:sit with the curriculum
Speaker:advisor and all that.
Speaker:And I had an appointment set
Speaker:up to go and get that started.
Speaker:And I was teaching in Boston at the time.
Speaker:And I flew in, landed in Dayton,
Speaker:grabbed my car.
Speaker:I had this lovely old,
Speaker:nineteen ninety one Nissan
Speaker:Maxima that I was thrilled with.
Speaker:I should never have had a Nissan Maxima.
Speaker:More speeding tickets than I had.
Speaker:I remember those.
Speaker:I remember those.
Speaker:Very effective muscle cars.
Speaker:So I drove out of the airfield,
Speaker:the airport,
Speaker:and I'm driving toward Antioch.
Speaker:and it's a beautiful sunny
Speaker:summer day and the sun is shining,
Speaker:it's cloudless sky, it's calm,
Speaker:it's serene.
Speaker:I'm zooming along,
Speaker:we go through a little valley,
Speaker:all of a sudden I'm hitting
Speaker:this big puddle of water
Speaker:and my car got hit by a
Speaker:weird gust of wind,
Speaker:it came out of nowhere and
Speaker:suddenly it spun around and
Speaker:I'm going backwards about
Speaker:ninety-five miles an hour
Speaker:Nissan Maxima.
Speaker:And I had this momentary choice to say,
Speaker:okay,
Speaker:I see a big red pickup truck in one
Speaker:side and the median on the other.
Speaker:It better hit the median.
Speaker:And so next thing I knew,
Speaker:everything went up in the
Speaker:air and then went down and
Speaker:bounced a few things.
Speaker:And the engine was off,
Speaker:but the radio was still playing.
Speaker:The window was shattered.
Speaker:The windshield was shattered.
Speaker:I walked away from, my car was totaled,
Speaker:poor car.
Speaker:I only had one small injury.
Speaker:I had one little scratch right there.
Speaker:Subtle, I know, but I got the point.
Speaker:You know, sometimes grandfather's like,
Speaker:I told you, I told you again,
Speaker:and you kept going, slap.
Speaker:I've had that conversation
Speaker:many times with people in
Speaker:these spaces where, you know,
Speaker:you could call grandfather, universe,
Speaker:spirit, whatever you identify with.
Speaker:But it's like, when you say, like,
Speaker:that was my question.
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:do you get the transmissions verbally
Speaker:or visually or in these ways?
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:they're not really breadcrumbs anymore.
Speaker:They're like, here's the breadcrumbs.
Speaker:But it's like it's almost that karmic loop,
Speaker:right,
Speaker:where it's like it kind of gets you
Speaker:to the place where it
Speaker:literally kicks you in the ass and says,
Speaker:all right, I told you twice.
Speaker:Each time I'm just going to
Speaker:get a little bit more.
Speaker:It's like, yeah,
Speaker:you literally told you to turn around.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so when you say like spirit told me,
Speaker:it's like that is when
Speaker:you're attuned to the signs.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You see exactly how it
Speaker:unfolds for you because
Speaker:there's this interweaving
Speaker:of where you see and what
Speaker:it sees with you.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And wouldn't it be lovely if
Speaker:they actually spoke in
Speaker:words that we could understand?
Speaker:Unfortunately,
Speaker:that has not been the case for me.
Speaker:I know it is for some.
Speaker:For me, it's like, well,
Speaker:that's kind of vague.
Speaker:And grandfather's like, no, it's not.
Speaker:And you know it's not.
Speaker:You're just using that as an
Speaker:excuse to try and do what
Speaker:you wanted to do anyway.
Speaker:If you keep going,
Speaker:you're going to run into this.
Speaker:So I learned that lesson finally.
Speaker:But, you know,
Speaker:this brings up the notion of once again,
Speaker:it is really difficult
Speaker:being called to do this
Speaker:kind of work in the West.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:you would think that after forty
Speaker:plus years of actively doing this,
Speaker:knowing that this is what I was doing,
Speaker:that I would get it through
Speaker:my thick skull that it's real.
Speaker:And I know that,
Speaker:and yet I keep getting
Speaker:these experiences that show
Speaker:me just how much more real
Speaker:it is than I was allowing it.
Speaker:Yeah, well,
Speaker:you think about near-death experiences,
Speaker:or if you study like...
Speaker:some deep meditative
Speaker:experiences in different
Speaker:realms or even plant
Speaker:medicines it's like there's
Speaker:a space where people say
Speaker:it's more real than real
Speaker:yes right and and you
Speaker:there's a knowing that and
Speaker:you and I have talked about
Speaker:this is because you you
Speaker:lead people through
Speaker:experiential learning I've
Speaker:learned this over my tenure
Speaker:just recently over the last
Speaker:few years is to teach through experience
Speaker:Because that's,
Speaker:that's how you learn this viscerally.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so we're talking about
Speaker:moving from here to here, from the mind,
Speaker:from the mind to the heart,
Speaker:like that intuitive, intuitive space,
Speaker:like where there's this
Speaker:knowing where your soul is, is,
Speaker:is connecting to your higher self.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We're talking about these
Speaker:kinds of concepts in a way.
Speaker:In a weird way, it's more embodied.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I know it's going beyond the physical,
Speaker:but the physical mind has a lot to offer.
Speaker:And there's a whole lot that we can learn.
Speaker:It's like the difference
Speaker:between somebody telling
Speaker:you what coffee is.
Speaker:And maybe you read a paper
Speaker:on what coffee beans are
Speaker:and how it's processed into coffee.
Speaker:That is a completely
Speaker:different experience than
Speaker:having somebody drop a cup
Speaker:of hot coffee on your lap
Speaker:or drinking a cup of hot coffee.
Speaker:That is very experiential.
Speaker:There's no way that your
Speaker:mind has any way to deny
Speaker:the truth of that experience.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:I think it's also in that space where
Speaker:I've been,
Speaker:I think this is where we're
Speaker:like in the next ten to
Speaker:twenty years is what I'm
Speaker:sensing and feeling is
Speaker:where we have this
Speaker:beautiful divine body where
Speaker:we have these five senses
Speaker:and we can sense the world
Speaker:around us in this three-D realm,
Speaker:in this body, right?
Speaker:We're here to experience all of it.
Speaker:And that's a uniqueness, I think,
Speaker:to humanity.
Speaker:And I'd like the,
Speaker:and word has come up with
Speaker:me and has the deepest
Speaker:meaning I've ever had in my life.
Speaker:And we also have this
Speaker:connection with source energy,
Speaker:with oneness,
Speaker:with this energetic space
Speaker:that you've been talking about,
Speaker:that we've been talking
Speaker:about in different realms,
Speaker:in different ways that we
Speaker:also get to experience.
Speaker:That is that real more than
Speaker:real because it's, you know,
Speaker:if we're point oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
Speaker:one of existence in this physical realm,
Speaker:everything else is so much
Speaker:more magnanimous.
Speaker:And the connectedness we have with spirit,
Speaker:with the quantum, with the world,
Speaker:with the universe,
Speaker:it's all interconnected.
Speaker:That's why it wouldn't be
Speaker:nice if we could just get a
Speaker:download with somebody talking to me.
Speaker:Not everybody gets that.
Speaker:But there's so much.
Speaker:That's why we call it fractal information,
Speaker:because there's there's so
Speaker:much attached to it that
Speaker:our let's call it our puny
Speaker:little brains just can't
Speaker:decipher it all at the same time.
Speaker:And it comes in these ways where, you know,
Speaker:if you choose to believe
Speaker:this because I choose to
Speaker:believe this and I believe
Speaker:it for real because I've
Speaker:experienced it so many times.
Speaker:I my one of my favorite words is awe.
Speaker:Because awe means I'm seeing
Speaker:in the connectedness of my
Speaker:existence with the whole.
Speaker:And I have a synchronicity journal now.
Speaker:I don't have a gratitude journal.
Speaker:I have a synchronicity
Speaker:journal because I love the
Speaker:synchronicities that just
Speaker:fall into place when they're supposed to.
Speaker:I want to talk a little bit
Speaker:about the concept that
Speaker:you've coined or introduced recently.
Speaker:post-tribal shamanism.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Because I've read your book
Speaker:more than once.
Speaker:I've given it out to many of
Speaker:my seeker-finder friends
Speaker:because it's just such a small, easy read,
Speaker:but it's so impactful.
Speaker:How does it differ from this
Speaker:traditional tribal?
Speaker:Okay, great question.
Speaker:We lost it.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I think something happened
Speaker:to the universe there.
Speaker:That's a great question.
Speaker:How does post-tribal
Speaker:shamanism differ from
Speaker:traditional indigenous shamanism?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:To...
Speaker:respond to that I have to
Speaker:actually back up a little
Speaker:bit and say you know there
Speaker:is actually a a special
Speaker:group of anthropologists
Speaker:these days that are called
Speaker:shamanologists so these are
Speaker:anthropologists who
Speaker:specifically study indigenous shamanism
Speaker:And one of the things that
Speaker:they've done over the past
Speaker:twenty years or so is go
Speaker:and speak with these
Speaker:indigenous people who are
Speaker:still practicing traditional shamanism,
Speaker:because not everybody got stopped.
Speaker:Most of them, but not everybody.
Speaker:And what they discovered is that
Speaker:all of these shamanic groups
Speaker:that are actually
Speaker:practicing what they
Speaker:consider shamanism have the
Speaker:same elements and what they
Speaker:discover is that all of
Speaker:them agree that a shaman is
Speaker:number one chosen by the
Speaker:spirits number two that
Speaker:they are chosen to be in
Speaker:service to both the human
Speaker:community and the spirits
Speaker:that they are in service by
Speaker:going into intentional
Speaker:trance states in order to
Speaker:move into the spirit realm,
Speaker:to connect with spirits and
Speaker:to bring back information
Speaker:and to cause changes that
Speaker:are not accessible through
Speaker:more ordinary means.
Speaker:All that is a long list of
Speaker:definitions to make one definition out of.
Speaker:But that's the way that looks.
Speaker:And what's interesting is
Speaker:when you just look at that,
Speaker:that is exactly the
Speaker:definition of what
Speaker:post-travel shamanism does.
Speaker:Where it differs is that the
Speaker:teachings that Grandfather
Speaker:Shespa has transmitted to
Speaker:me and through me to my
Speaker:apprentices and to my students
Speaker:to those people who read the book,
Speaker:those teachings are
Speaker:specifically aimed at
Speaker:people in our Western culture, okay?
Speaker:Because we have that invisible wound,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:we have that sense of
Speaker:disconnection from so many
Speaker:parts of human experience
Speaker:that our ancestors were
Speaker:very connected with, okay?
Speaker:now we can't go backward and
Speaker:so we have to go forward
Speaker:right so the question is
Speaker:how can we take this
Speaker:forward in a way where this
Speaker:form of shamanism can be uh
Speaker:supportive and productive
Speaker:and it wasn't until the
Speaker:mid-eighties that I coined
Speaker:that term post-travel
Speaker:shamanism because I knew that
Speaker:I wanted to honor those
Speaker:people who were still
Speaker:practicing in indigenous shamanism.
Speaker:I did not want to step on their toes.
Speaker:I had already discovered
Speaker:that most of what
Speaker:Grandfather Shespa had passed on to me,
Speaker:most of those teachings
Speaker:also showed up in one form or another,
Speaker:something very like them,
Speaker:in some of these indigenous practices.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Back in the early eighties,
Speaker:while I was still struggling with,
Speaker:you know, but can I call myself a shaman?
Speaker:I mean, after all, I'm white and I,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:I'm growing up here in the West.
Speaker:Do I have a right?
Speaker:And I was teaching about
Speaker:shamanism because I had studied a lot.
Speaker:and I was at a conference up in Detroit,
Speaker:of all places,
Speaker:and they were having a few
Speaker:of us who were teaching about shamanism.
Speaker:And there was one in particular I saw,
Speaker:they had a
Speaker:shaman and tribal shaman of
Speaker:the briat uh siberian
Speaker:tribal tradition and I was
Speaker:thrilled I was so excited
Speaker:and then I realized oh and
Speaker:unfortunately they placed
Speaker:her right at the same time
Speaker:as my workshops so as soon
Speaker:as I got done with my workshops
Speaker:I head out,
Speaker:I turned that hall and headed
Speaker:to it where I think her class was.
Speaker:And all of a sudden I see in front of me,
Speaker:this large woman, she's like six foot two,
Speaker:beautiful ethnic tribal dress, headdress,
Speaker:all this.
Speaker:And I look up and says, oh,
Speaker:you must be Sarah and Darrell.
Speaker:which was her name.
Speaker:And she said,
Speaker:you must be Ken Day because I
Speaker:have my fedora on him.
Speaker:Everyone knows shamans wear fedoras.
Speaker:So we wound up
Speaker:going back into a classroom
Speaker:that was unused for a while
Speaker:and spent at least like two,
Speaker:maybe three hours just
Speaker:getting to know one another
Speaker:and what my dear friend
Speaker:Ayla used to call swapping
Speaker:stupid shaman tricks.
Speaker:Just bringing out little bits and pieces,
Speaker:sharing, right?
Speaker:Like, oh, well, you do it this way,
Speaker:we do it this way.
Speaker:Interesting.
Speaker:And when we got done,
Speaker:what really hit me was she said, well,
Speaker:it's so nice to meet another shaman here.
Speaker:I was worried because, you know,
Speaker:I met a few people and they
Speaker:were talking about shamanism, but I said,
Speaker:well,
Speaker:what leads you to believe that I'm a
Speaker:shaman?
Speaker:And she said, well, when you call them,
Speaker:the spirits come.
Speaker:okay thank you and to this
Speaker:day even if someone doesn't
Speaker:um adhere to all of the
Speaker:definitions that the
Speaker:shamanologists would like
Speaker:to use I'm still going to
Speaker:give them the benefit of
Speaker:the doubt if when they call
Speaker:the spirits answer because
Speaker:that's really what we're
Speaker:doing we're working with spirits and
Speaker:I hate to say it,
Speaker:but a lot of people out
Speaker:there in the West who are
Speaker:considering themselves and
Speaker:selling themselves as
Speaker:shamans are basically doing
Speaker:creative visualization and
Speaker:imaginary work because they
Speaker:haven't had that connection
Speaker:to move into the realm of the spirits.
Speaker:And I'm hoping that that is
Speaker:really going to grow.
Speaker:I know that I'm not alone in this.
Speaker:I know that there are other
Speaker:people out there
Speaker:And I love that.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:This is growing.
Speaker:And grandfather really wants
Speaker:to have me plant the seed of his lineage.
Speaker:This is not my lineage.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I'm just I'm not smart enough to
Speaker:have made all this stuff up.
Speaker:It works entirely too well.
Speaker:And if it didn't work,
Speaker:I wouldn't be passing it on.
Speaker:It was one thing I figured
Speaker:out a long time ago was
Speaker:road test it first.
Speaker:If it works on me,
Speaker:then try it on a few
Speaker:friends and works on them.
Speaker:try it on some clients, works on them,
Speaker:maybe add it to your teaching.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:I've always had that principle,
Speaker:this do you first, right?
Speaker:The do you first principle
Speaker:for wellness and health and healing.
Speaker:And so I love that.
Speaker:And I've said that more
Speaker:often than not over this
Speaker:past year to people where I
Speaker:just simply say,
Speaker:I can't make this stuff up.
Speaker:I can't make it up.
Speaker:This is what's happening.
Speaker:You know, it's one of those things where,
Speaker:but,
Speaker:and I love that you brought that up
Speaker:because I think the word
Speaker:like selling themselves as
Speaker:shamans is to me,
Speaker:energetically mismatching.
Speaker:I don't like that.
Speaker:And I like that you've gone
Speaker:into this space where,
Speaker:and I love the definition
Speaker:from a shaman because I've
Speaker:learned to love and experience things
Speaker:the brevity and levity of shamanism.
Speaker:It's not all of this.
Speaker:Like they have fun,
Speaker:they laugh and they do this.
Speaker:And there's this simplicity
Speaker:that's also complex, right?
Speaker:Why do you call me a shaman?
Speaker:Well, when you call the spirits come,
Speaker:like it's very simple,
Speaker:but at the same time,
Speaker:we could probably have a
Speaker:whole podcast and probably
Speaker:a whole book on what that means.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so you know when you know,
Speaker:but at the same time,
Speaker:I really like that you
Speaker:brought it up and you
Speaker:explained it in that way.
Speaker:My probing, my deeping diver question is,
Speaker:how does one know whether
Speaker:they're visually, you know,
Speaker:visualization versus spirit
Speaker:actually calling?
Speaker:Like, where is that?
Speaker:Because my analytical goes in here, right?
Speaker:This, right?
Speaker:I know it's here.
Speaker:I know it's the knowing,
Speaker:but like my left brain
Speaker:analytical that saved me
Speaker:and part of my invisible
Speaker:wounds is like always wanting to know how,
Speaker:but it's not like that, is it?
Speaker:So how do you discern?
Speaker:How do you discern the difference?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:so this is the foundation of
Speaker:one of the primary
Speaker:meditative techniques that
Speaker:I use which I'm pretty sure
Speaker:I got from grandfather but
Speaker:it shows up all over the
Speaker:world and essentially it's
Speaker:the ability to drop back
Speaker:into observer mind if you
Speaker:look at the mind as having
Speaker:two functions one is to
Speaker:observe and one is to think
Speaker:and if you focus on the
Speaker:observer mind and observe
Speaker:the thinking mind
Speaker:the thoughts just fall away.
Speaker:I know it sounds weird, but it works.
Speaker:So when I'm meditating,
Speaker:one of the first things I
Speaker:do is drop back into
Speaker:observer mind and I observe
Speaker:the thoughts that arise.
Speaker:And then I trace those
Speaker:thoughts back to their source.
Speaker:And that source is emptiness.
Speaker:but that emptiness is filled
Speaker:with awareness, right?
Speaker:And that awareness and that
Speaker:emptiness are in union.
Speaker:And when you observe that, you realize, oh,
Speaker:this isn't going anywhere.
Speaker:This isn't falling away.
Speaker:This isn't dissolving like my thoughts do.
Speaker:When I observe this union,
Speaker:this luminous field of awareness,
Speaker:not only does it remain,
Speaker:but the stillness, the silence,
Speaker:the spaciousness of this place,
Speaker:the bliss of this place remains.
Speaker:Now,
Speaker:I can still be generating a thought
Speaker:every once in a while,
Speaker:and when I look at that, that falls away,
Speaker:that dissolves.
Speaker:And so I know there's a difference.
Speaker:And I can take this into the
Speaker:spirit realm with me when
Speaker:I'm in shamanic body and I
Speaker:go and I'm standing there
Speaker:in front of the world tree
Speaker:and I'm being really visual that day.
Speaker:And for some reason,
Speaker:the spirit world has gifted
Speaker:me with this vision of the
Speaker:world tree being this four
Speaker:hundred year old oak tree.
Speaker:Like, wow, that's really cool.
Speaker:And I drop back into
Speaker:observer mind and that four
Speaker:hundred year old oak tree
Speaker:just melts away.
Speaker:But the world tree is still there.
Speaker:Does that make sense?
Speaker:Yeah, it does.
Speaker:You know, it's this whole like, you know,
Speaker:the thought that just came
Speaker:to me is like the nature versus nurture.
Speaker:Like there's parts of this
Speaker:that take practice because
Speaker:we have been trained.
Speaker:trained or programmed over
Speaker:the last couple of hundred
Speaker:years especially like to
Speaker:not be attuned to this to
Speaker:be in the in like we've
Speaker:gone from the age of
Speaker:intelligence to now moving
Speaker:back here but like you said
Speaker:we're not going back we're
Speaker:moving forward we're using
Speaker:this but fusing more more
Speaker:to that and so I think it's like
Speaker:There's this practice and
Speaker:there's also guiding people
Speaker:through the awareness process,
Speaker:the awakening process of that.
Speaker:So that's kind of how I see it at least.
Speaker:Me too.
Speaker:Which is why I still feel
Speaker:like learning and which,
Speaker:which brings me to some of the, and,
Speaker:and I also believe we both
Speaker:believe that like,
Speaker:this is now something for
Speaker:the Western world to be
Speaker:able to experience and learn.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And this is why and the Western world,
Speaker:which is infusing a lot
Speaker:into these indigenous
Speaker:tribes and practices,
Speaker:is also falling away.
Speaker:Like, you know,
Speaker:I learned from the Shibipo
Speaker:healers in Peru and.
Speaker:They were talking like my
Speaker:daughter doesn't want to.
Speaker:continue this lineage you've
Speaker:been chosen but they they
Speaker:choosing the west world in
Speaker:different ways which so
Speaker:there's no wrong or right
Speaker:but I've also heard that
Speaker:like from different
Speaker:practices and and shamanic
Speaker:trainings that I've done is
Speaker:like the the indigenous and
Speaker:the people that are are
Speaker:teaching us now the you
Speaker:know the white world the
Speaker:western world whatever is
Speaker:They also know that we're ready.
Speaker:This is part of that
Speaker:imparting of the wisdom,
Speaker:the wisdom keepers moving forward, right?
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:they know it's essential for us to do
Speaker:this.
Speaker:We're getting to the point
Speaker:where if we don't wake up and learn this,
Speaker:we could destroy ourselves.
Speaker:Agreed.
Speaker:Agreed.
Speaker:We already know that we're
Speaker:destroying ourselves.
Speaker:So it's like the definition
Speaker:of insanity times a million.
Speaker:It's like we're doing the same things.
Speaker:We're ruining our planet.
Speaker:And I love that you brought
Speaker:that into conversation.
Speaker:the ancestral and animistic
Speaker:body revival because it is
Speaker:that connectedness that
Speaker:we're needing to learn.
Speaker:We're needing to be,
Speaker:because we all have it
Speaker:inside us to connect.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:This is not like a thing
Speaker:where no human can get there.
Speaker:Now,
Speaker:not all humans are born or destined to
Speaker:be shamans, to be in both worlds, right?
Speaker:But we can experience the
Speaker:connectedness of this source energy.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:and one of my Mongolian shaman friends,
Speaker:tribal shaman of the Dark Hall of People,
Speaker:Amina,
Speaker:has coined her own term for people
Speaker:who practice shaman, shamanism,
Speaker:who aren't called to become shamans,
Speaker:but they work with their family,
Speaker:with their friends and so on.
Speaker:She calls them shamanists.
Speaker:I think that's great.
Speaker:You know, basically they're animists plus.
Speaker:And I think that a lot of
Speaker:the people who do the
Speaker:training with me wind up
Speaker:being shamanists.
Speaker:And I think that's fine.
Speaker:A lot of them become like
Speaker:life coaches or some other
Speaker:thing that they can use the
Speaker:techniques of shamanism,
Speaker:the teachings of shamanism
Speaker:to expand their awareness
Speaker:and their connections and
Speaker:deepen those connections
Speaker:for the benefit of their clients.
Speaker:which I think that becomes, again,
Speaker:that sort of part is the
Speaker:whole right when we when we serve.
Speaker:This is why I love working
Speaker:with high impact people,
Speaker:because if they if I can
Speaker:help heal them and impact
Speaker:them in some way,
Speaker:then that ripple effect
Speaker:becomes how we raise humanity,
Speaker:how we raise consciousness
Speaker:and how we get out of this pickle.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Because we're in that space.
Speaker:We talked about the invisible wound.
Speaker:A little bit of the
Speaker:animistic revival honoring ancestors.
Speaker:How is this manifest in like
Speaker:your daily life and in the
Speaker:workshops that you're teaching?
Speaker:I don't know if people
Speaker:understand what that word really means,
Speaker:but I think we know we've started,
Speaker:we talked a lot about connection, right?
Speaker:A lot about
Speaker:you know, these, everything has energy,
Speaker:it has life.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And we just think this body
Speaker:and us were special, right?
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:it really helps if you have the basic, uh,
Speaker:well, one of grandfather's teachings,
Speaker:but it shows up in most, if not all, uh,
Speaker:tribal cultures as well.
Speaker:And that is that we human
Speaker:beings have not one, but three souls.
Speaker:One of these souls is what
Speaker:we call the ancestral soul.
Speaker:And it enters the womb at just, you know,
Speaker:at the first breath,
Speaker:not even first breath, I'm sorry.
Speaker:When the baby is conceived,
Speaker:this enters the fetus and
Speaker:kind of comes in and out.
Speaker:And this contains all of
Speaker:your ancestors going all
Speaker:the way back in time.
Speaker:And then within that
Speaker:communal soup of the ancestors,
Speaker:it also has all the
Speaker:individuals that are still
Speaker:alive and the ones that are
Speaker:recently passed.
Speaker:So this is where you're born from.
Speaker:You begin as a communal entity.
Speaker:Then with the first breath
Speaker:you take outside of your mother's womb,
Speaker:right after birth,
Speaker:that first breath you take in,
Speaker:You bring in what we call
Speaker:the celestial soul.
Speaker:And the celestial soul is
Speaker:that strange part of
Speaker:yourself that has had many
Speaker:lifetimes before this and
Speaker:will go on to have many
Speaker:lifetimes after this.
Speaker:And we call incarnation.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Incarnation, reincarnation, rebirth,
Speaker:all that.
Speaker:When these two come together within us,
Speaker:they create the vital soul,
Speaker:which is who we are in this lifetime.
Speaker:OK,
Speaker:so we all have this predetermined sense
Speaker:of being a communal self.
Speaker:And when we emerge into this lifetime,
Speaker:one of the first things
Speaker:that we do to our kids is
Speaker:try to train them to forget that,
Speaker:you know, there's no such thing.
Speaker:You are an individual.
Speaker:You need to grow up and be a strong,
Speaker:independent individual.
Speaker:rugged and individualist and
Speaker:unfortunately that is
Speaker:completely at odds with
Speaker:that deep profound hunger
Speaker:for a larger sense of self
Speaker:that contains everybody and
Speaker:we get a little bit of that
Speaker:in more traditional
Speaker:cultures where the family
Speaker:is still really important
Speaker:but here in the west
Speaker:especially in this you know
Speaker:our white bread uh
Speaker:society here we don't have
Speaker:that much at all so one of
Speaker:the first things that
Speaker:happens when I'm teaching
Speaker:my workshops and we sit
Speaker:there around the mesa and
Speaker:everyone puts their tokens
Speaker:in to connect in with the
Speaker:the one center and the
Speaker:world tree and then we do a
Speaker:meditative experience where
Speaker:we move through that one
Speaker:center and expand into the
Speaker:agricore that shared soul
Speaker:where we're all one and
Speaker:The vast majority of
Speaker:students experiencing that
Speaker:for the first time are like, wow,
Speaker:I feel so loved, so accepted,
Speaker:so welcomed.
Speaker:And everyone feels that.
Speaker:I have never had anyone who
Speaker:has kind of put their toe
Speaker:in that pool and felt anything but loving,
Speaker:accepting, welcoming, belonging.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:that's something we're all hungry for.
Speaker:We're all thirsty for.
Speaker:In fact,
Speaker:so many of our societal
Speaker:difficulties from making
Speaker:bad choices in our lives,
Speaker:choosing drugs or alcohol
Speaker:or bad relationships,
Speaker:all these are because we
Speaker:have this deep hunger that
Speaker:is not being met.
Speaker:And so when we have a way to meet that,
Speaker:it will transform things.
Speaker:I have seen...
Speaker:numerous people who came in
Speaker:and they were they consider
Speaker:themselves addicts or
Speaker:alcoholics we start working
Speaker:on that soul level
Speaker:connection they start doing
Speaker:their work they start
Speaker:connecting with the
Speaker:ancestral soul they start
Speaker:making regular daily uh
Speaker:gifts to the ancestors
Speaker:honoring the ancestors
Speaker:thanking the ancestors next
Speaker:thing you know they've
Speaker:forgotten that they were a
Speaker:alcoholic you know it just
Speaker:it's not an issue anymore
Speaker:because they are getting
Speaker:what they were trying to
Speaker:fill with alcohol
Speaker:that make sense yeah well it
Speaker:also it also speaks to this
Speaker:you know when we connect on
Speaker:the soul level this un
Speaker:maybe unconscious level of
Speaker:something bigger than me
Speaker:right these things sort of
Speaker:dissipate naturally because
Speaker:the energetics changes and
Speaker:so and I love that because
Speaker:I think you know we've
Speaker:talked a lot about in
Speaker:different ways you know the
Speaker:the traumas and the
Speaker:addictions and why they're
Speaker:underneath that.
Speaker:It's not the fact that it's
Speaker:just an addictive chemical
Speaker:and you're just gonna use
Speaker:it and you're destroying yourself.
Speaker:It's like,
Speaker:there's something underneath seeking,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:That's seeking and then once
Speaker:you feed that,
Speaker:and you give you gift it
Speaker:what it's supposed like not
Speaker:supposed to but like what
Speaker:it naturally is right
Speaker:instead it's like they just
Speaker:forget it just falls away
Speaker:it's not this body figure
Speaker:like detox and just go away
Speaker:because that's why people
Speaker:relapse all the time
Speaker:because they don't actually
Speaker:get they they get they get
Speaker:cleaned up but they don't
Speaker:get what they're listening
Speaker:to right well they don't
Speaker:well we have this idea that
Speaker:there's something wrong
Speaker:with them for wanting this thing
Speaker:There's nothing wrong.
Speaker:We all want it, right?
Speaker:We all need it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It's an innate thing inside of us.
Speaker:You know, taking this to the next step,
Speaker:one of my recent graduated
Speaker:apprentices.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I actually have people who have
Speaker:gone all the way through
Speaker:the apprenticeship now and
Speaker:have graduated and become
Speaker:shamans in their own right.
Speaker:And this fellow is a lawyer
Speaker:and he is one of my biggest provocateurs.
Speaker:He keeps pushing me to go
Speaker:further and stronger and deeper.
Speaker:And it's great.
Speaker:And he has encouraged me to start a
Speaker:A company with him we call Alembic.
Speaker:And it is a company that is
Speaker:focused on bringing this
Speaker:kind of work and
Speaker:specifically organizational
Speaker:constellation work.
Speaker:We'll talk about that in a
Speaker:moment to organizations, companies,
Speaker:nonprofit organizations, corporations,
Speaker:wherever,
Speaker:anywhere there is a group that
Speaker:can be supported and
Speaker:assisted and transformed and healed.
Speaker:by this deeper realization
Speaker:of the soul level awareness
Speaker:of the organization this is
Speaker:tremendously effective and
Speaker:where this comes from some
Speaker:of you may have heard of
Speaker:family constellation work
Speaker:systemic constellation work
Speaker:a guy named bert hellinger
Speaker:way back in two thousand one
Speaker:I was leading a group of my
Speaker:lovely students and my wife
Speaker:over in Cornwall, England.
Speaker:And a dear friend from over
Speaker:in Germany came to visit and she said, oh,
Speaker:Ken, you're going to love this.
Speaker:I discovered this new exercise,
Speaker:this new process that's
Speaker:going on called constellation work.
Speaker:And I said, well, let's see.
Speaker:And so that evening she set
Speaker:up a constellation.
Speaker:She had everyone sitting in
Speaker:the seminar room.
Speaker:And she would, she had one person said,
Speaker:okay, you're going to be the client.
Speaker:Now we're going to.
Speaker:interview you going to
Speaker:figure out what's going on
Speaker:with you okay now we're
Speaker:going to have you choose
Speaker:someone in the group to
Speaker:represent yourself someone
Speaker:to represent your mother
Speaker:someone to represent your
Speaker:father so we did this and
Speaker:then that person that
Speaker:client got up and just the
Speaker:sheer intuition placed each
Speaker:one of the representations
Speaker:where they felt they
Speaker:belonged in the room and
Speaker:they sit down and watch
Speaker:Simply observe.
Speaker:And she got up and walked
Speaker:around and would interview
Speaker:each of the representatives
Speaker:and find out what was going on.
Speaker:And all these things became clear.
Speaker:And then she could encourage,
Speaker:invite this soul to move forward.
Speaker:these things around and
Speaker:address the issues and move forward.
Speaker:And I'm observing this,
Speaker:I'm completely blown away.
Speaker:It's my God, this is group shamanism.
Speaker:This field that they're generating,
Speaker:that's the family soul,
Speaker:that's the ancestral soul.
Speaker:It's so clear, it's right there.
Speaker:And this gives people an
Speaker:opportunity to actually see
Speaker:with their eyes,
Speaker:with their physical senses,
Speaker:what's going on
Speaker:unconsciously at a soul
Speaker:level within themselves.
Speaker:Organizational constellation
Speaker:uses the fact that we humans
Speaker:Even when we don't realize it,
Speaker:even when we are completely unaware of it,
Speaker:we always join together and
Speaker:create these group souls.
Speaker:So when we work someplace,
Speaker:when we have a job,
Speaker:we have a group soul with
Speaker:those people that we're working with.
Speaker:And that group soul has its own dynamic.
Speaker:And if things aren't going well,
Speaker:it's probably because that
Speaker:dynamic has something
Speaker:counterproductive going on.
Speaker:And if we do a constellation
Speaker:and bring that into clarity,
Speaker:we can address it.
Speaker:We can ship that.
Speaker:I had one of my first
Speaker:organizational
Speaker:constellations years ago
Speaker:after Patricia and I did
Speaker:two years of training with Heinz Stark,
Speaker:where there was this small
Speaker:company that was right
Speaker:across the river in Kentucky.
Speaker:And they had...
Speaker:had great business for like
Speaker:sixty years and then a new
Speaker:company came in and bought
Speaker:them and everyone who had
Speaker:been you know the uh the
Speaker:family basically died out
Speaker:it was a family-owned
Speaker:company the family died off
Speaker:and so this new uh group
Speaker:came in and purchased them
Speaker:and they changed a whole lot of things
Speaker:and all sudden their market
Speaker:share just collapsed and
Speaker:they started losing people
Speaker:working for them and they
Speaker:couldn't figure it out and
Speaker:they brought us in as a
Speaker:last resort quite frankly
Speaker:because like well we've
Speaker:tried everything else it
Speaker:hasn't worked so let's try
Speaker:this and there was no real
Speaker:expectation but what became
Speaker:very clear fairly early on was that
Speaker:the group soul of the
Speaker:company was really unhappy
Speaker:with the new owners and I
Speaker:kept trying to find out
Speaker:what is it they did that
Speaker:triggered this and I said
Speaker:okay so what have you done
Speaker:with the actual space and
Speaker:we said well when we came
Speaker:in it was you know the last
Speaker:time it was painted was
Speaker:like in and still had a big
Speaker:portrait of the founders
Speaker:sitting on the walls ah
Speaker:And where is that portrait
Speaker:of the founder now?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Turns out it was in the
Speaker:basement behind the furnace
Speaker:with a bunch of other paintings.
Speaker:Brought that back up, renovated it,
Speaker:put it back on the wall.
Speaker:Within three weeks,
Speaker:their market share had
Speaker:started coming back up.
Speaker:Sometimes it's that simple.
Speaker:their, you know,
Speaker:the company's group soul
Speaker:was thrilled to have, you know,
Speaker:Papa back on the wall,
Speaker:and made all the difference.
Speaker:And that was palpable to the
Speaker:people who were working there.
Speaker:So my hope is that we're going to,
Speaker:we've just started this company and we're,
Speaker:we're just looking for, uh, a beginning,
Speaker:but, uh, if anyone's interested,
Speaker:please get in touch.
Speaker:Um, I love that.
Speaker:And I, I,
Speaker:I think there's such value in it
Speaker:because we talked a little
Speaker:bit earlier on that subject was like,
Speaker:it goes beyond like company culture,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:And there's, there's this imprint.
Speaker:this lineage we can talk
Speaker:about ancestral lineage
Speaker:through these different
Speaker:bodies now these different
Speaker:soul prints and we we've
Speaker:called our pharmacy which
Speaker:has many evolutions through
Speaker:it like we call it a
Speaker:farmily but it's really a
Speaker:soul print right it's that
Speaker:soul that we have because
Speaker:the part again the part is
Speaker:the whole right all these
Speaker:things happen and it's not
Speaker:just the people that come
Speaker:in and change things and
Speaker:People don't like it.
Speaker:It's like,
Speaker:there's an energetics underneath that.
Speaker:And I think uncovering that in today,
Speaker:it's like,
Speaker:what a beautiful adaptation of
Speaker:family constellation work
Speaker:or whatever those things are, because
Speaker:applying it to real-life
Speaker:business is viable.
Speaker:It's real.
Speaker:It's something that works.
Speaker:It brings it actively into
Speaker:this Western culture that we have today.
Speaker:It says,
Speaker:you want to know how to apply this?
Speaker:Well, here's one way to apply it.
Speaker:It doesn't get much more
Speaker:modern Western than a corporation.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It makes it more easily...
Speaker:uh, not adaptable, but like easily, like,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:usable in this space because you
Speaker:can tie how we see or feel
Speaker:or do things in this world
Speaker:to that energetics,
Speaker:which is where I think it's
Speaker:going to have a lot of power and a lot of,
Speaker:of, of impact.
Speaker:So I'm really excited for that.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:We'll get to how people can
Speaker:get a hold of you and all
Speaker:that good stuff.
Speaker:But I know you're working on a new book.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Tell us a little bit about that,
Speaker:because I think you're
Speaker:you're taking your
Speaker:experience and moving it
Speaker:into that next realm of like, you know,
Speaker:going from thinking to
Speaker:doing to becoming right.
Speaker:This thing.
Speaker:So talk to us a little bit
Speaker:about the new book.
Speaker:okay well the new book is
Speaker:entitled uh planting the
Speaker:seed of shamanism in the
Speaker:west and it is you know
Speaker:grandfather wants me to
Speaker:found his lineage here uh
Speaker:one of the actually the
Speaker:biggest difference between
Speaker:post-tribal shamanism and
Speaker:indigenous shamanism is
Speaker:indigenous shamanism always
Speaker:is a lineage-based system
Speaker:you can trace it back to
Speaker:okay well my own god was
Speaker:one of my ancestors and my
Speaker:teacher was you know the
Speaker:tribal shaman before me and
Speaker:it's always clear and when
Speaker:grandfather shespa started
Speaker:teaching me all of a sudden
Speaker:my lineage is invisible
Speaker:it's still there it goes
Speaker:back to grandfather and
Speaker:pure land but I can't talk
Speaker:to anybody and say well
Speaker:yeah you can do a google on uh
Speaker:you know google this name
Speaker:and you're going to come up
Speaker:with uh all kinds of
Speaker:writings no it's uh it's
Speaker:something that has to begin
Speaker:here in the west and it's a
Speaker:big job you know and I'm
Speaker:still even as I'm writing
Speaker:this book I'm discovering
Speaker:wow I still am so western
Speaker:in my thinking in some ways
Speaker:And it's still such a
Speaker:growth-oriented process.
Speaker:I'm constantly expanding.
Speaker:You know, at sixty-six years old,
Speaker:I am learning more now on a
Speaker:daily basis than I was at thirty.
Speaker:And that's both exciting and
Speaker:a little bit daunting, you know, right?
Speaker:A few years ago,
Speaker:Amina invited me over to do
Speaker:a little shamanic pilgrimage in Mongolia.
Speaker:And I thought, that's so sweet and no way.
Speaker:There's no way I can free
Speaker:myself up from my practice
Speaker:and my clients and my home.
Speaker:I have a family,
Speaker:I have a wonderful wife and daughter.
Speaker:And so I told my wife this said, yeah,
Speaker:you know, wants me to go over and,
Speaker:you know, uh, got this fellow in, uh,
Speaker:in Wales is really trying
Speaker:to get me to go.
Speaker:And she said, well, why wouldn't you?
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:there just went my best excuse not to.
Speaker:So I wound up going and I remember that.
Speaker:Yeah, that was quite a trip.
Speaker:But even there, when we're driving,
Speaker:we're taking this big old
Speaker:bus across the sands of western Mongolia,
Speaker:and we stop in this town called Khogd,
Speaker:and we're doing a ritual to
Speaker:honor the savdag,
Speaker:the spirit of a mountain,
Speaker:the guardian spirit of a mountain,
Speaker:and this whole
Speaker:ritual and I got to feed the
Speaker:own God who was manifesting
Speaker:within the shaman some
Speaker:water or something.
Speaker:I think it was probably
Speaker:vodka in a wooden bowl.
Speaker:And then after the ritual is all done,
Speaker:he came up and says, Ken,
Speaker:my my spirits told me to
Speaker:tell you that you have two own gods.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:I hadn't told Amina that I had two Ungods.
Speaker:We had only talked about Shespa.
Speaker:And so it was another one of those,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:this is real in a deeper and
Speaker:more substantial way than
Speaker:you can imagine.
Speaker:Deal with it.
Speaker:And so I'm still dealing with it.
Speaker:And it's that beautiful, like, again,
Speaker:the matter of factness.
Speaker:Like, it's so simple to them.
Speaker:It's like, oh, he told me it was two.
Speaker:And it's like, oh.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And they're like, yeah, it just is.
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:and then there's this lightness to
Speaker:the heavy a lot when I see in shamanism,
Speaker:which I so appreciate.
Speaker:Maybe I resonate with.
Speaker:Where do people find Ken and
Speaker:what he's doing?
Speaker:Because I think
Speaker:a lot of people are going to
Speaker:want to explore these if it
Speaker:resonates with them,
Speaker:especially in this new
Speaker:stuff you're doing.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:I do have a website called shamans
Speaker:touched.com.
Speaker:And, uh,
Speaker:I do have a couple of books out
Speaker:there already on, uh,
Speaker:various messenger places among them,
Speaker:Amazon.
Speaker:So they can just do a,
Speaker:a search on K E N N D A Y. Um,
Speaker:And I teach.
Speaker:I teach in Cincinnati.
Speaker:I'd love to go teach in Nashville.
Speaker:I have taught in Detroit, in Colorado,
Speaker:in Chicago.
Speaker:I've taught over in England
Speaker:and Germany about
Speaker:twelve years ago patricia my
Speaker:wife uh said you know you
Speaker:spent a lot of time out of
Speaker:time town traveling and
Speaker:you're a father now so you
Speaker:need to spend some more
Speaker:time being a papa and being
Speaker:here and so I stopped uh
Speaker:traveling I stopped
Speaker:teaching outside of
Speaker:cincinnati and I promised
Speaker:her I wouldn't do more than
Speaker:two weekends a month
Speaker:which doesn't sound like a lot,
Speaker:but it backs up.
Speaker:So right now I am really
Speaker:starting and we're going on
Speaker:to our third workshop.
Speaker:There are nine workshops in
Speaker:the basic series.
Speaker:And we're doing the third of
Speaker:those workshops in November.
Speaker:We just had one last weekend,
Speaker:getting that underway.
Speaker:And it's fascinating.
Speaker:I love my life.
Speaker:I love my work.
Speaker:I feel so blessed by my
Speaker:family and my friends and my students,
Speaker:the apprentices that I get to work with.
Speaker:It is a tremendous blessing.
Speaker:And I'm still kind of waking
Speaker:up to that and realizing, wow,
Speaker:my life is really incredible.
Speaker:And in spite of the
Speaker:difficulties that I've had
Speaker:in getting here,
Speaker:it has all been worth it.
Speaker:It continues to be worth it
Speaker:in every moment.
Speaker:I think what I've learned a lot, too, is,
Speaker:you know, part of that chosen, right, is,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:some would call it the wounded
Speaker:healer's journey, right, where, you know,
Speaker:there's specific things, you know, to,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:move you through this physical realm of,
Speaker:like,
Speaker:almost that rebirth, right?
Speaker:We talked about multiple
Speaker:rebirths and how the people
Speaker:that are usually called to
Speaker:this have a lot of
Speaker:challenges in their life to
Speaker:get to where they are because they're big,
Speaker:big teachers.
Speaker:I've always thought that in my own life.
Speaker:the harshness of my life,
Speaker:if people want to call that,
Speaker:have always been there to
Speaker:teach me something, right?
Speaker:To move me through.
Speaker:Well, and to sensitize.
Speaker:Or broken families or, you know,
Speaker:all the hardships that have
Speaker:happened or deaths and things like that.
Speaker:And it's like part of that
Speaker:is part of that spot, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It sensitizes you to a
Speaker:larger world and it teaches
Speaker:you compassion.
Speaker:teaches you the hard way but
Speaker:it does teach you well and
Speaker:also it also I think
Speaker:there's a piece that I've
Speaker:learned from a lot of shamanic work is
Speaker:it's not for the light of heart either.
Speaker:It's a lot of, it's work, work, right?
Speaker:It's not like, you know,
Speaker:apprenticeship can happen
Speaker:for years and years.
Speaker:And it's not like, Oh,
Speaker:I just go online and I take
Speaker:a course and I'm good.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:There's,
Speaker:there's this dedication to the craft.
Speaker:Like you said, you are chosen.
Speaker:So there's something to that.
Speaker:And so I think there's,
Speaker:there's this beautiful
Speaker:space that we have for that.
Speaker:So, wow.
Speaker:I think,
Speaker:We probably need to schedule
Speaker:another one of these.
Speaker:I can't wait to just sit in
Speaker:community and in your workshops.
Speaker:It's something that I know
Speaker:will happen when it's supposed to.
Speaker:Maybe in Asheville here or
Speaker:maybe somewhere in Cincinnati.
Speaker:It doesn't matter.
Speaker:I really enjoyed this conversation.
Speaker:I think it's just been a
Speaker:beautiful interaction of
Speaker:this ancient wisdom meets
Speaker:modern day world and this
Speaker:fusion of awakening for
Speaker:people and in your way,
Speaker:in the way that you bring
Speaker:this to the world.
Speaker:So thank you so much for what you're doing,
Speaker:how you're doing it.
Speaker:And most importantly,
Speaker:the impact that you've had,
Speaker:not only on me and
Speaker:people that I know,
Speaker:but also the world and what you're doing.
Speaker:Ken, go see him on shamanstouch.com.
Speaker:Go grab his book.
Speaker:It's a short read.
Speaker:It's a beautiful read.
Speaker:If you would like us to do a
Speaker:workshop series with Josh
Speaker:down there in Nashville.
Speaker:Nashville, not Nashville.
Speaker:I'm not doing Nashville.
Speaker:The energy vortex is of the east.
Speaker:I am not doing Nashville.
Speaker:We are doing Nashville.
Speaker:Which is all better after the storms,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I feel like I'm in Charlotte,
Speaker:but my true home and my
Speaker:calling is going towards
Speaker:there and the magic of that lake.
Speaker:Beautiful.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:Well, thank you very much, Josh.
Speaker:It's such a pleasure and I
Speaker:look forward to working together.
Speaker:Sounds good.
Speaker:Thank you, my friend.
Speaker:Aho.
Speaker:Aho.
