#91: The Secret Link Between Intimacy and Vitality After 40 With Shana James
Could Intimacy Be the Missing Key to Vitality After 40?
For more than 20 years, Shana James has been a trusted guide in the realm of relationships, offering profound insights into the causes of disconnection and the subtle art of rebuilding trust. A relationship coach with a Master’s in psychology, Shana is certified in DISC and Positive Intelligence, and has facilitated decades of Authentic Relating workshops—blending communication, mindfulness, and sensuality to help people reconnect with themselves and others.
Shana is passionate about helping individuals over 40 find or reignite deep, meaningful love. Her groundbreaking approach shows that emotional intimacy and being truly seen and heard in a relationship can fuel not only passion but also our physical health and mental vitality. As she says:
“Most of us have never learned how to bring our desires, pain, or truth into connection. We think it’s going to create conflict—but it’s actually the pathway to intimacy.”
She hosts two transformative podcasts: Man Alive, with over 300 episodes featuring thought leaders and intimacy experts, and Practicing Love: Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40, a bold invitation to reclaim joy and connection later in life. Her TEDx talk, What 1000 Men’s Tears Reveal About the Crisis Between Men and Women, unveils the silent pain and unmet needs that often go unspoken in our relationships, and the healing that becomes possible when we finally listen.
She is the author of two acclaimed books:
📘 Honest Sex: A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive
📕 Power and Pleasure: A Man’s Guide to Becoming a Confident and Satisfied Lover and Leader
In this episode of Beyond the Pills, Shana shares why real intimacy—emotional, physical, and spiritual—isn’t just a luxury; it’s a necessity for personal and workplace well-being. As companies search for ways to reduce healthcare costs and boost team performance, the answer might be closer to home than we think.
🎯 Key Insight: “Intimacy isn’t just about romance—it’s about being fully alive. When we’re deeply connected, we’re less stressed, more creative, and more productive.”
🔗 Take the intimacy quiz: shanajamescoaching.com/quiz
Transcript
Hello, hello.
Speaker:Welcome back to this episode
Speaker:of Beyond the Pills.
Speaker:This podcast is where we
Speaker:journey through the
Speaker:intersection of ancient
Speaker:wisdom meets modern science
Speaker:put together to uncover the
Speaker:essence of true healing, body, mind,
Speaker:and spirit.
Speaker:I'm your host, Josh Rimini,
Speaker:pharmacist turned healer.
Speaker:And today we have a special guest,
Speaker:friend and colleague of mine,
Speaker:who is someone who deeply
Speaker:understands this
Speaker:intersection of emotional wellness,
Speaker:intimacy, and healing.
Speaker:Shana James is a
Speaker:relationship coach with
Speaker:over twenty years
Speaker:experience helping people, mostly men,
Speaker:find and create healthy,
Speaker:passionate relationships,
Speaker:especially after forty.
Speaker:She holds a master's in psychology,
Speaker:certified in disc and
Speaker:positive intelligence,
Speaker:and has facilitated decades
Speaker:of authentic relating
Speaker:workshops rooted in communication,
Speaker:mindfulness, and sensuality.
Speaker:Shayna is also the host of
Speaker:two powerful podcasts,
Speaker:Man Alive and her new show,
Speaker:Practicing Love,
Speaker:Having the Best Love and
Speaker:Sex of Your Life After Forty.
Speaker:In her TED Talk,
Speaker:What a Thousand Men's Tears
Speaker:Reveal About the Crisis
Speaker:Between Men and Women, and her two books,
Speaker:Honest Sex and Power and Pleasure,
Speaker:explore the depths of real intimacy,
Speaker:emotional honesty,
Speaker:and what it takes to keep passion alive.
Speaker:Today, I'm excited.
Speaker:We're going to explore all
Speaker:this and how deep listening
Speaker:can be truly and being
Speaker:truly seen and communication can
Speaker:be a gateway to health, healing,
Speaker:and connection.
Speaker:Shaina's message is very clear and real.
Speaker:Real intimacy might just be
Speaker:the path that takes us beyond the pills.
Speaker:So welcome to the show, Shaina.
Speaker:Thank you for having me.
Speaker:I love that last part,
Speaker:that real intimacy might be
Speaker:one of the paths to beyond the pills.
Speaker:I was not going to put that in there.
Speaker:I was like, Oh,
Speaker:maybe she won't like that part.
Speaker:And I'm so glad that I stuck with it.
Speaker:So I love it.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:There's something so
Speaker:powerful about it because I
Speaker:talked to many people who
Speaker:don't have real intimacy,
Speaker:which we can talk more
Speaker:about what that even is,
Speaker:but that sense of, you know,
Speaker:not feeling close, not feeling supported,
Speaker:not feeling like someone has your back,
Speaker:not feeling understood.
Speaker:Like there's misery in that
Speaker:and pain and suffering that
Speaker:happens that I think can
Speaker:lead people to more of that, right?
Speaker:What is the solution?
Speaker:But thinking more like you
Speaker:talk about in terms of
Speaker:pills versus that relational, emotional,
Speaker:spiritual component.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:and I think that's a really great
Speaker:place to start today because it's not,
Speaker:we had this conversation
Speaker:prior to our recording,
Speaker:like it's not that pills are unnecessary.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We've said that a lot, but it's,
Speaker:we talked about this in
Speaker:another podcast or maybe a
Speaker:conversation I had this
Speaker:week about like the numbing aspect,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Because when you're talking
Speaker:about not having intimacy,
Speaker:not having connection and
Speaker:there's a pain associated to
Speaker:that that we want to go
Speaker:away we want we're we're
Speaker:pulling away from what
Speaker:doesn't feel good the ickies
Speaker:And we're drawing into what feels right.
Speaker:And so the pills are really
Speaker:to dull the symptom or numb the pain.
Speaker:The pain associated with not
Speaker:being seen or heard.
Speaker:And this has been your life's work.
Speaker:This has been your realization.
Speaker:I loved your TED Talks
Speaker:because it was so...
Speaker:I was just like,
Speaker:I know we've had
Speaker:conversations and we've
Speaker:talked before because we're
Speaker:in the same circles.
Speaker:But it was like, oh,
Speaker:now I know why we're so connected,
Speaker:because you've been doing
Speaker:this work in such a positive way,
Speaker:especially for men.
Speaker:And we're both we're both
Speaker:doing a lot with men's work right now.
Speaker:And I'm launching my
Speaker:programming and you have your programing.
Speaker:but you've been doing this
Speaker:for over two decades.
Speaker:So my like little pepper
Speaker:question of like here,
Speaker:here's your origin story coming out,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:What first led you to
Speaker:specialize in helping people in this way?
Speaker:Well, I would say going all the way back,
Speaker:my parents' relationship is one of,
Speaker:you know, high conflict, high intensity.
Speaker:And I would often ask the
Speaker:question when I was young, like,
Speaker:do you really love each other?
Speaker:Is this what love is?
Speaker:And in my book, Honest Sex, I really,
Speaker:as I was writing it, I was like,
Speaker:how do I write about this
Speaker:in a way that's not,
Speaker:I don't want to throw my
Speaker:parents under the bus, right?
Speaker:But what I found was the
Speaker:surface symptoms of you're not doing this,
Speaker:you're not taking out the garbage,
Speaker:you're not helping me in the office,
Speaker:like all those complaints
Speaker:really have this deeper
Speaker:aspect of I'm not feeling
Speaker:supported I'm not feeling
Speaker:understood I'm not feeling
Speaker:known or connected with and
Speaker:there was a part of me for
Speaker:a long time that was just
Speaker:like screw relationship
Speaker:like I do not need that and
Speaker:if that's what it has to
Speaker:look like I'm not doing it
Speaker:so I I really went on a lifelong quest of
Speaker:How could two people come
Speaker:together and stay alive and stay,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:uplifted and learn to love
Speaker:better and deeper and more
Speaker:in terms of both giving and receiving and,
Speaker:you know, the whole of it.
Speaker:So that was definitely my,
Speaker:what would you call it?
Speaker:It was like I was catapulted, right?
Speaker:The wounded healer that came
Speaker:from that wound into, all right,
Speaker:let's figure this out.
Speaker:Well, the wound becomes the gift, right?
Speaker:And if you dive into the gene keys,
Speaker:because that's what I'm
Speaker:doing right now is like
Speaker:diving into the shadows
Speaker:that become your gift.
Speaker:And it's funny that you say
Speaker:that because it's,
Speaker:and I want to explore this
Speaker:and I'm exploring this with
Speaker:another person because I'm
Speaker:really big into my gene
Speaker:keys right now and into my,
Speaker:the Venus sequence,
Speaker:which is people don't know about this.
Speaker:You can certainly learn about it,
Speaker:but I'm learning more about
Speaker:how my relationships work
Speaker:we react to those wounds and
Speaker:those core things.
Speaker:And my core wound is to be seen.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It literally is.
Speaker:It is in my genetics,
Speaker:like the way and manner in
Speaker:which I'm seen shows up with my trigger.
Speaker:If I'm not seeing that is my number one.
Speaker:So it's funny how we all love to see this,
Speaker:but I'm really realizing like,
Speaker:that's a big one for me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And right, you know,
Speaker:as you're working with
Speaker:people and men and vitality and right,
Speaker:if you are not seen or
Speaker:known by the ones you love,
Speaker:that's a huge way that
Speaker:isolation shows up and
Speaker:loneliness and people feel
Speaker:oftentimes lonelier in
Speaker:relationship than being
Speaker:single when it's like, oh,
Speaker:there's this person right here.
Speaker:It's so close.
Speaker:And yet we feel so far away.
Speaker:explore that more because I
Speaker:think that what you just did,
Speaker:I think it resonates with people.
Speaker:Like when you think about it, like,
Speaker:cause for me,
Speaker:it's one of those needs of
Speaker:being seen is also to be like, I gotta,
Speaker:I know where I am in my authenticity now.
Speaker:I know that when I speak my
Speaker:truth and I'm going full in
Speaker:on my authenticity and my
Speaker:personal professional life,
Speaker:my life like that.
Speaker:But I,
Speaker:I always have that core need of like,
Speaker:my wife,
Speaker:like really being behind me on that,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:That part of like,
Speaker:and there's always these
Speaker:times where you like,
Speaker:you listen and you're like,
Speaker:hmm, I don't feel like she sees me, right?
Speaker:And that's such a crucial
Speaker:part because you've focused
Speaker:a lot on intimacy and
Speaker:connection for life after forty, right?
Speaker:Where that relationship has
Speaker:had turns and twists and
Speaker:sometimes energetic wounds
Speaker:and the things that happen
Speaker:in the relationship
Speaker:it's we're not in the
Speaker:honeymoon phase anymore.
Speaker:There is no princess type thing.
Speaker:It's, it's real life.
Speaker:And I've been, and,
Speaker:and I think Esther Perel
Speaker:had a podcast about like the,
Speaker:what was it?
Speaker:The,
Speaker:that humans have two to three
Speaker:meaningful relationships in
Speaker:their lifespan.
Speaker:And sometimes that
Speaker:relationships with the same person.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Sometimes same person.
Speaker:Elaborate on that piece because,
Speaker:I think that's the core to me,
Speaker:at least in my
Speaker:relationships is as I'm
Speaker:working through my
Speaker:relationship with my wife,
Speaker:because it's always work, right?
Speaker:Is that piece where you have to,
Speaker:you're both evolving now as different,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:But it still can be in the same.
Speaker:Well, okay.
Speaker:And sometimes because I am
Speaker:in the perimenopausal brain fog phase,
Speaker:we may have to like,
Speaker:you may have to bring me
Speaker:back to the question or on track.
Speaker:But what I get curious about
Speaker:is for anyone listening and for you,
Speaker:if you don't feel seen,
Speaker:how do you then go about
Speaker:trying to be seen?
Speaker:Because most of us,
Speaker:when met with some kind of
Speaker:block or defense or vagueness, right,
Speaker:like from the other person,
Speaker:we have our own wounds and
Speaker:triggers that come up and
Speaker:then we defend and we block
Speaker:and we fight back.
Speaker:Well, that's the dip, right?
Speaker:The cycle.
Speaker:Then it's the cycle, right?
Speaker:And then the walls get
Speaker:higher and higher and higher.
Speaker:And so what I've found, you know,
Speaker:in working with clients and
Speaker:couples and my own work, it's like, okay,
Speaker:if we can bring ourselves
Speaker:to that very moment and say, hey,
Speaker:I'm not feeling seen right now.
Speaker:Could we slow this down?
Speaker:Could we, you know,
Speaker:would you be open to
Speaker:listening more or listening
Speaker:from curiosity or,
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I had a person I'm working with
Speaker:recently where they she and
Speaker:her partner had a
Speaker:conversation and it just
Speaker:was not what she wanted at all.
Speaker:It was like very focused on
Speaker:things that had nothing to do with them.
Speaker:And I said, well, OK,
Speaker:would you be open to having
Speaker:an honest moment where you actually say,
Speaker:hey.
Speaker:it's a yes.
Speaker:And like, thank you, you know, or, okay,
Speaker:got it.
Speaker:That's what your experience was.
Speaker:What I'm really curious
Speaker:about is how did this thing impact you?
Speaker:What happened for you?
Speaker:What, what, right.
Speaker:What did you learn about the two of us?
Speaker:So I think, um,
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:the communicating on this deeper level,
Speaker:which in honest sex I call
Speaker:mature honesty versus you never see me,
Speaker:you never do this or, you know,
Speaker:this is why I can't be with
Speaker:you or this is why.
Speaker:And I used to do this stuff
Speaker:when I was married.
Speaker:This was my I was guilty of
Speaker:saying things like maybe we
Speaker:should just end the
Speaker:relationship or this isn't working or,
Speaker:you know, I would get emotionally hurt.
Speaker:more volatile or just kind of unhinged.
Speaker:And then my partner didn't feel heard.
Speaker:And we had this dynamic.
Speaker:So yeah, and again,
Speaker:going back to the beyond the pills,
Speaker:this is a very strong way
Speaker:that people feel depressed,
Speaker:they feel alone, lonely, right?
Speaker:There's so much that comes
Speaker:out of it so much pain.
Speaker:The fixer in me wants to ask
Speaker:so many questions on that,
Speaker:and I'm not going to do it right now.
Speaker:I'm curious.
Speaker:Tell us what one of them is.
Speaker:What's one of the questions?
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:the question that stews with me a lot,
Speaker:because my wife and I,
Speaker:we're working on this.
Speaker:Because the triggers do come up,
Speaker:because the wound comes up, right?
Speaker:I'm not seen unheard,
Speaker:so I'm either going to
Speaker:lean in and try to get heard
Speaker:or I'm going to lean back
Speaker:out and close down which
Speaker:then creates the cycle so
Speaker:we've worked a lot on like
Speaker:ways and manners to break
Speaker:the cycle but one of the
Speaker:questions is what happens
Speaker:if one person tries to do
Speaker:that but the other person
Speaker:doesn't catch on like it's
Speaker:is it a chicken or egg
Speaker:thing in your mind or is it
Speaker:like we both have to
Speaker:I'm speaking esoterically of
Speaker:just everybody because
Speaker:we're all in relationships
Speaker:in some way or other and I
Speaker:love that what you said was
Speaker:like honest mature honesty
Speaker:right now mature like
Speaker:stepping back and sometimes
Speaker:even me but it comes from
Speaker:that grounded space yes
Speaker:right and sometimes you're
Speaker:looking at the we like hey
Speaker:look what we are look at
Speaker:this dynamic that we are in
Speaker:right now look at what's
Speaker:happening I wonder I wonder how we could
Speaker:shift this I wonder but I do
Speaker:think that if if one I
Speaker:think a lot of change can
Speaker:happen with one person
Speaker:coming to the relationship
Speaker:and really bringing that
Speaker:maturity and that vision of
Speaker:you know hey this is what
Speaker:it could look like if we
Speaker:are kind and compassionate
Speaker:with each other and we
Speaker:really see this as a
Speaker:spiritual practice or at
Speaker:least a growth practice
Speaker:where I'm going to grow you
Speaker:you're going to grow me
Speaker:part of that is like rubbing our
Speaker:our bits against each other,
Speaker:not in the nice way, right?
Speaker:Like we're going to rub up
Speaker:against each other.
Speaker:If one person ultimately is
Speaker:really unwilling, it's hard.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I've seen relationships end for
Speaker:that reason.
Speaker:Because I don't think the
Speaker:goal is that we're trying
Speaker:to change each other,
Speaker:but I do think the goal is
Speaker:we're trying to co-create
Speaker:and grow together.
Speaker:But if you don't have a willing partner,
Speaker:it's a lot harder.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think that's,
Speaker:Cause everyone, you know,
Speaker:that's where it goes.
Speaker:You're trying to change me.
Speaker:I'm not who I am.
Speaker:And it's, it's to me, it's called,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:I'm looking at growth and evolution,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:We're evolving.
Speaker:We're evolving as a species.
Speaker:We're evolving as a relationship.
Speaker:You know, we,
Speaker:we can do our own personal growth,
Speaker:but then that,
Speaker:and you've seen this cause
Speaker:we've had conversations, but like,
Speaker:this is why I love having
Speaker:experts like you on board because when,
Speaker:when you're in a growth,
Speaker:personal growth and transformations,
Speaker:But then your relationship
Speaker:comes into play because the
Speaker:deep relationships are
Speaker:where the wounds come from.
Speaker:The deep relationships are
Speaker:where they come out from.
Speaker:They're supposed to.
Speaker:This is what, like, it's funny.
Speaker:My wife's like, you've changed,
Speaker:but not here.
Speaker:And I'm like, well,
Speaker:that's because we're
Speaker:working on us because this
Speaker:is where the rubber hits the road, right?
Speaker:This is where it gets tough.
Speaker:This is where it gets tough, right?
Speaker:By design, right?
Speaker:Our human design says we're
Speaker:going to hurt the people we
Speaker:love the most.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And do you do you find that
Speaker:holding that perspective like, hey,
Speaker:this is for our growth has helped?
Speaker:I think it's it's it's yes,
Speaker:but it's an and right.
Speaker:It's like, yes,
Speaker:because when both I feel
Speaker:when both parties are
Speaker:looking at it from a
Speaker:perspective outside of
Speaker:their dynamic and for the greater good.
Speaker:Now, this could be relationship.
Speaker:It could be professional, too.
Speaker:It could be anything.
Speaker:Like you're looking at,
Speaker:I call it the telescope view,
Speaker:not the microscope view.
Speaker:You're like, all right,
Speaker:because we can always look
Speaker:at the acute moment and blame, shame,
Speaker:do whatever.
Speaker:Like somebody said something
Speaker:that didn't mean.
Speaker:And it's interesting because.
Speaker:you started this conversation with that.
Speaker:It's like, on the surface,
Speaker:people interact this way,
Speaker:but there's deep
Speaker:understanding underneath.
Speaker:And it's funny,
Speaker:because sometimes I get
Speaker:frustrated with myself.
Speaker:It's like, why can't we just be honest,
Speaker:honest?
Speaker:But it's always this
Speaker:underlying pinning stuff.
Speaker:And it's like, no.
Speaker:Because it's not.
Speaker:It's like, well, right.
Speaker:It's subconscious, right?
Speaker:It's in that space of where we can't.
Speaker:But the honest, honest,
Speaker:that's where it's like,
Speaker:are we willing to see our blind spots?
Speaker:what we think is honest
Speaker:honest is actually just
Speaker:another layer that
Speaker:underneath that there's
Speaker:even a bigger a deeper
Speaker:honesty like you know you
Speaker:you as a spiritual
Speaker:practitioner know that most
Speaker:of us are relating to the
Speaker:world in this way that we
Speaker:think is honest and then
Speaker:there's like twelve other
Speaker:dimensions that were that
Speaker:are real but unseen right
Speaker:so if we stop at that level
Speaker:of honesty where it's like
Speaker:I just want to say it like it is
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:that's a kind of honesty that I
Speaker:think doesn't account for
Speaker:the impact on the other person,
Speaker:which then to me is like, is that really,
Speaker:is it honest, right?
Speaker:If, if we're trying to grow,
Speaker:but we're having that level of honesty,
Speaker:then to me, that's.
Speaker:Well, and I think that's,
Speaker:that's a great segue.
Speaker:I want to talk about your
Speaker:book because the word
Speaker:honest is in it and the word sex is in it,
Speaker:which is important for me, um, is
Speaker:looking at it from the perspective of,
Speaker:but like that honesty,
Speaker:like what you talked about
Speaker:with honest communication,
Speaker:or you said mature, right?
Speaker:And mature is honest, but it's honest.
Speaker:I was reading a book
Speaker:recently about anger and stuff.
Speaker:And it was like,
Speaker:talking about it is your
Speaker:response loving and is it
Speaker:positive like your it's
Speaker:like and that piece was
Speaker:really important because a
Speaker:lot of times we know we're
Speaker:not right like something's
Speaker:not right we've been wrong
Speaker:right but then what is our
Speaker:response and if you ask
Speaker:yourself the question like
Speaker:hey I'm frustrated or angry
Speaker:I'm not being seen but then
Speaker:that second question is
Speaker:well what is my response
Speaker:gonna be yeah and how is it gonna affect
Speaker:is it going to positively
Speaker:and loving affect the situation or not?
Speaker:Because if you go hard in,
Speaker:you can tell yourself, shit,
Speaker:like if I go hard in,
Speaker:that ain't going to help.
Speaker:It's certainly probably
Speaker:going to hurt the problem.
Speaker:And putting that little
Speaker:extra question in there was so important.
Speaker:It was like, oh,
Speaker:if I got to ask myself that
Speaker:question every time I react,
Speaker:and I can't answer yes,
Speaker:then I have to think about
Speaker:that differently.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that's often what I say
Speaker:to people is like,
Speaker:if you're not really aware
Speaker:of how you're communicating
Speaker:and what you're bringing to the dynamic,
Speaker:if you're not fully aware and you're not,
Speaker:you know, giving your hundred percent,
Speaker:like I committed after I
Speaker:got divorced that I was not going to
Speaker:Open now commitment doesn't
Speaker:mean I do this a hundred percent,
Speaker:but I was not going to open
Speaker:my mouth in a dynamic until
Speaker:I could forward connection.
Speaker:or growth.
Speaker:The example in my book is
Speaker:that my kid was young and I
Speaker:was dating someone and he said, well,
Speaker:if we were to live together,
Speaker:have a life together,
Speaker:I would not be available in
Speaker:the mornings because that's
Speaker:my journaling time and my
Speaker:yoga time and all those things,
Speaker:my meditation time.
Speaker:I was like, okay, I understand that,
Speaker:believe that.
Speaker:Then there was this rage in
Speaker:me that was like,
Speaker:that's the fucking hardest
Speaker:time with a young kid are
Speaker:you kidding me by nine
Speaker:o'clock I want to go back
Speaker:to bed and be like I'm done
Speaker:can't I be done now so I
Speaker:felt the rage and then I
Speaker:said to him you know this I
Speaker:think this is where the
Speaker:skill is like can we
Speaker:actually feel it we're not
Speaker:bypassing it but can we
Speaker:also witness it and then
Speaker:can we also communicate
Speaker:to a person in a way that
Speaker:creates more connection.
Speaker:And I said,
Speaker:I'm going to take a moment and
Speaker:close my eyes and I'm going
Speaker:to breathe because there's
Speaker:a lot of emotion in me right now.
Speaker:And I don't think it's going
Speaker:to be useful for me to just lash out.
Speaker:And so I basically sat there
Speaker:on the couch and closed my
Speaker:eyes and gave myself some time,
Speaker:which I often see with people.
Speaker:There's an urgency or
Speaker:there's like in the reactivity.
Speaker:We have to respond right
Speaker:away because we have to prove our point.
Speaker:We have to stand up for ourselves.
Speaker:And when we really slow it down,
Speaker:we don't actually have to.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It just feels so, so intense.
Speaker:And I just, you know,
Speaker:I sat there for a couple of
Speaker:minutes and then I opened
Speaker:my eyes and I said, OK.
Speaker:Here's what just happened.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I just had a really strong
Speaker:reaction because it's
Speaker:really vulnerable right now.
Speaker:And I feel exhausted in the
Speaker:mornings and my kid is
Speaker:having meltdowns and I
Speaker:don't know what to do.
Speaker:And, you know,
Speaker:it's one thing to be alone and be alone.
Speaker:It's another thing to be
Speaker:alone with a partner there who's like,
Speaker:I'm not available for those times.
Speaker:So, you know,
Speaker:then we had a conversation
Speaker:about it as opposed to what
Speaker:would have happened if I
Speaker:had just let it rip and been like,
Speaker:fuck you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:it's not okay yeah deal with
Speaker:it you know it's not gonna
Speaker:because then it invalidates
Speaker:both sides so you did you
Speaker:did what I've been like
Speaker:what I've taught to do
Speaker:right in these counseling
Speaker:sessions because but it's
Speaker:still I want to know no no
Speaker:but like here too is like
Speaker:when you work with people
Speaker:do you teach them
Speaker:how to move out of reaction
Speaker:mode and into respond mode.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Cause I, to me, that's just me.
Speaker:And maybe it's a lot of other people too.
Speaker:It's like,
Speaker:that's the hardest part is that
Speaker:trigger point where you got to make,
Speaker:it's not a conscious choice.
Speaker:Cause those triggers coming
Speaker:out for a reason, they're right.
Speaker:Now those reasons are
Speaker:maladaptive in our adult
Speaker:age because they're
Speaker:generally coming from
Speaker:childhood stuff and all that other thing,
Speaker:traumas that are real,
Speaker:but your brain and your
Speaker:body has maladapted to
Speaker:where to interpret it as super true.
Speaker:It's like, boom.
Speaker:And if you hit certain
Speaker:trigger points for me, it's, it's like,
Speaker:I'm out of control.
Speaker:I just don't know what happens.
Speaker:It just comes out and it's like, Oh,
Speaker:but I catch it faster and faster and
Speaker:to the point where I'm getting close,
Speaker:but there's ways and
Speaker:manners to work through that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I think some of it is
Speaker:supporting people on their
Speaker:own to have practices,
Speaker:whether it's meditation or, you know,
Speaker:regulating your nervous
Speaker:system and all the things
Speaker:that there are these days,
Speaker:whether it's exercise or yoga or,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:just taking responsibility to say, okay,
Speaker:I'm going to recognize that
Speaker:there are different parts
Speaker:of me and different, you know,
Speaker:some of the parts are more
Speaker:explosive and some of the parts are mean,
Speaker:and some of the parts are
Speaker:all these things.
Speaker:And what do I do to make
Speaker:sure that I actually have
Speaker:the keys to the bus with
Speaker:all these different parts, you know,
Speaker:that my mature one is
Speaker:actually driving the bus.
Speaker:And I have plenty of shitty
Speaker:things that go through my mind.
Speaker:and learning to slow it down
Speaker:and witness them.
Speaker:It's like, do I really wanna say that?
Speaker:Is that gonna do anything?
Speaker:But also not giving up.
Speaker:Like if there's a shitty
Speaker:thought in my mind,
Speaker:I don't wanna just say,
Speaker:I'm not gonna say anything
Speaker:and then just shove it under the rug.
Speaker:It's more like, what's at the root of it?
Speaker:Is there something I'm
Speaker:needing or something I'm
Speaker:wanting or a disappointment or a hurt?
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Like what is actually going
Speaker:on there that I can say
Speaker:that's going to create more connection?
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:that's exactly what came into my head
Speaker:is like, you don't stuff it down.
Speaker:Like just not responding to
Speaker:it doesn't mean you just
Speaker:get stuffed away and thrown under.
Speaker:It never gets resolved.
Speaker:So there's a way and manner
Speaker:in which to not express
Speaker:yourself outwardly
Speaker:but help me let it move and slide, right?
Speaker:I always think of it as the middle way,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Because the reactive,
Speaker:explosive way is like, right?
Speaker:That's one end of the spectrum.
Speaker:The collapse,
Speaker:the I'm just going to suck it
Speaker:up and suck it in is the
Speaker:other end of the spectrum.
Speaker:The repressive way.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And then the middle way is...
Speaker:oh, how do I kind of, you know,
Speaker:Aikido with this?
Speaker:How do I dance with this?
Speaker:How do I be conscious and
Speaker:communicate and connect
Speaker:with someone about it
Speaker:instead of exploding or collapsing,
Speaker:shoving it in?
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:So your book,
Speaker:your book is called Honest Sex.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:which is such an interesting title.
Speaker:Like it makes me want to think more.
Speaker:I can't wait to dive into it.
Speaker:But what does honest sex
Speaker:mean to you and why is it so healing?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like where, what,
Speaker:what came from all of it?
Speaker:What came from all of that?
Speaker:Like the name is like,
Speaker:I've never heard those two
Speaker:words together.
Speaker:Together.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:In a way that becomes healing.
Speaker:regenerative in some
Speaker:positive light in some way
Speaker:that becomes not like
Speaker:defense so I want to just
Speaker:talk about it in general
Speaker:and because to me it's like
Speaker:it's so it's not catchy
Speaker:it's just like it's it's
Speaker:one of those things where I
Speaker:hadn't heard it before yeah
Speaker:right I think people stop
Speaker:and they're like wait what
Speaker:what is that exactly but it
Speaker:really good way yeah
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There, for me, there was a question of,
Speaker:okay, well,
Speaker:how do we keep relationships alive?
Speaker:Not just sex,
Speaker:but also passion and intimacy
Speaker:and connection and that
Speaker:sense of feeling understood and right.
Speaker:The emotional connection and
Speaker:realizing that the foundation of that,
Speaker:that I've found is this
Speaker:kind of mature honesty
Speaker:where we can then grow
Speaker:together and support each other.
Speaker:And yeah,
Speaker:As I feel into that part, I was like, okay,
Speaker:I have to be honest with myself first.
Speaker:And then how do I be honest
Speaker:with someone else or others?
Speaker:And I can't remember exactly
Speaker:as I was writing the book,
Speaker:how this all came into be, but you know,
Speaker:there was the question of
Speaker:what is sex honestly,
Speaker:or what is sex actually?
Speaker:And what I found is that the
Speaker:definitions in the dictionary were
Speaker:I would, I judge them very harshly as like,
Speaker:so simple.
Speaker:Mechanistic, right?
Speaker:Oh my God.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Mechanistic.
Speaker:And also, you know,
Speaker:just like,
Speaker:there's no gender inclusivity or
Speaker:sexual preference.
Speaker:It's like, you know, a penis and a vagina,
Speaker:like intercourse, that is what sex is.
Speaker:And it's, it just, I was like, oh my God,
Speaker:what year are we in?
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:This is ridiculous.
Speaker:So as I studied Tantra and
Speaker:different ways of orgasmic meditation and,
Speaker:you know, different ways to explore sex,
Speaker:what I found was
Speaker:When we have this rigid or
Speaker:limited idea of what sex is,
Speaker:and we're trying to get there,
Speaker:we leave all the other stuff out.
Speaker:It feels like, you know,
Speaker:all the other stuff is just
Speaker:a consolation prize, as opposed to
Speaker:what it's like to be
Speaker:energetically connected
Speaker:with someone and to be
Speaker:emotionally connected with
Speaker:someone and even physically
Speaker:but sex can be physical and
Speaker:not be intercourse so my my
Speaker:definition of what sex
Speaker:actually is is a way of
Speaker:going beyond the goal
Speaker:orientation and the you
Speaker:know and and seeing how
Speaker:many ways can we connect
Speaker:and experience pleasure
Speaker:together with not just our physicality,
Speaker:but our physicality, our emotions,
Speaker:our energy bodies, our spiritual parts.
Speaker:And so then it becomes this,
Speaker:I call it four dimensional
Speaker:way of engaging and connecting.
Speaker:And when people think we're
Speaker:trying to get to
Speaker:intercourse and then say
Speaker:intercourse isn't happening,
Speaker:especially after forty,
Speaker:if our libidos are fading
Speaker:or our bodies aren't working as well.
Speaker:I've had paramenopausal struggles.
Speaker:know where intercourse is
Speaker:painful but then it's like
Speaker:we can have sex in so many
Speaker:different ways and when we
Speaker:expand that definition of
Speaker:what sex is there's way
Speaker:more fulfillment that's
Speaker:possible and pleasure and
Speaker:intimacy that's possible and so
Speaker:that was a part of it too.
Speaker:It's like, okay, how do we be honest?
Speaker:And how do we also be honest
Speaker:about our desires and what
Speaker:we want and the pleasure
Speaker:and not just be stuck in
Speaker:this limited box that our culture says,
Speaker:this is how you have to have sex.
Speaker:Well, I mean, it's, it's,
Speaker:it's breaking the barriers
Speaker:of that cultural norm, but in a
Speaker:In an honest way, like in not,
Speaker:and not in it like a weird, oh,
Speaker:this is just not going to work way.
Speaker:But, and you,
Speaker:you keep working through that
Speaker:angle of after forty, right?
Speaker:Where things slow down.
Speaker:It's not just a relationship thing.
Speaker:It's a physical, it's an energetic thing.
Speaker:Maybe there's some disconnect.
Speaker:What are the common reasons
Speaker:couples lose that trust and
Speaker:connection and how do you
Speaker:help them rebuild that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:This is a big deal.
Speaker:This is why we have more
Speaker:than one meaningful
Speaker:relationship in our lifespan.
Speaker:One, because when we were
Speaker:a hundred years ago,
Speaker:we just didn't live this long.
Speaker:It was just like, that's it.
Speaker:Like we don't have enough
Speaker:time in our time span,
Speaker:but now we're evolving as a species.
Speaker:And there's so many people,
Speaker:especially in the ones that
Speaker:I've met in the,
Speaker:like the spiritual growth space,
Speaker:they seem to be moving on
Speaker:into new relationships
Speaker:sometimes with the same person,
Speaker:like I said,
Speaker:but also sometimes just
Speaker:because it evolves.
Speaker:So
Speaker:In your experience,
Speaker:you've worked with lots of people,
Speaker:thousands of men and people
Speaker:in just different ways with couples.
Speaker:But that to me is like,
Speaker:how do you root cause that, right?
Speaker:How do you move back from that?
Speaker:Well, that's where, to me,
Speaker:the honesty comes in,
Speaker:because as I started
Speaker:looking at what could keep
Speaker:a relationship alive for a lifetime,
Speaker:that's not to say that all
Speaker:relationships need to last
Speaker:for a lifetime.
Speaker:But if we want to try to
Speaker:keep a relationship alive for a lifetime,
Speaker:to me,
Speaker:there's no other way to do it than
Speaker:to have incredibly honest conversations,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Where it's like, hey,
Speaker:this part of our dynamic
Speaker:I'm struggling with,
Speaker:And let's see what we can do with this.
Speaker:Not no blame, no shame, no attack.
Speaker:It's just, this is what's going on for me.
Speaker:You know, I can admit, Hey,
Speaker:I'm less attracted to you
Speaker:when this happens,
Speaker:or I feel less turned on
Speaker:when this happens.
Speaker:If we're not talking about those things,
Speaker:if we're not talking about
Speaker:the hurts or the
Speaker:disappointments or the irritations, then.
Speaker:that way of wanting to be
Speaker:together and be intimate
Speaker:will inevitably fade.
Speaker:There's no way, you know,
Speaker:unless you have a kink that
Speaker:you really get turned on by
Speaker:being angry with each other
Speaker:or being disconnected from each other.
Speaker:For most of us,
Speaker:our bodies tend to open and
Speaker:relax and feel more turned
Speaker:on when we feel safety and trust, though,
Speaker:as Esther, Esther Perel talks about,
Speaker:right, there's the
Speaker:the mating and captivity,
Speaker:there's safety and trust.
Speaker:And there's also,
Speaker:we need some of that
Speaker:excitement and the newness,
Speaker:but you can consciously
Speaker:create that together when
Speaker:you're willing to be honest and say, hey,
Speaker:I trust you right now and I
Speaker:feel super safe,
Speaker:but things feel kind of flat.
Speaker:Okay, what can we do here?
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:that brings me to the second kind of
Speaker:question that builds off of that.
Speaker:Why do you think
Speaker:in your experience,
Speaker:because I love teaching
Speaker:through experience,
Speaker:why do you think people
Speaker:don't have more of those
Speaker:honest conversations?
Speaker:Is it the fear that builds up through it?
Speaker:Is it the resentment?
Speaker:Is it the why bother?
Speaker:I've heard many people talk
Speaker:about the fear and like,
Speaker:I don't, I'm scared.
Speaker:I'm scared to know what if
Speaker:I'm not pleasing my partner?
Speaker:What if my partner really
Speaker:isn't attracted to me?
Speaker:And those fears run so deep,
Speaker:especially in sex, right?
Speaker:And to have someone who we
Speaker:love or we care about
Speaker:reject us or to feel like
Speaker:they're rejecting us can be,
Speaker:can feel like death.
Speaker:And it's more than people
Speaker:want to bear sometimes.
Speaker:And so it's like, well,
Speaker:there are a couple different
Speaker:ways to feel that death one
Speaker:of them being um you know
Speaker:the monotony monotony and
Speaker:the stagnation and the like
Speaker:it's kind of like the slow
Speaker:death where we're bleeding
Speaker:out for you know sometimes
Speaker:that is like at least I
Speaker:know it's familiar to me
Speaker:and nothing's gonna shake
Speaker:my you know rock my boat or
Speaker:throw me out onto a totally
Speaker:different trajectory or I
Speaker:don't know what's gonna happen
Speaker:that can be more comfortable
Speaker:for people than the, all right,
Speaker:if we say these things,
Speaker:we're risking really knowing each other.
Speaker:And if we really know each other,
Speaker:we might know that maybe
Speaker:we're not compatible.
Speaker:But often what I find is
Speaker:that if people can have
Speaker:those conversations in a conscious way,
Speaker:some of that spark
Speaker:And that excitement rebuilds
Speaker:because it's like, Ooh,
Speaker:we just had a scary conversation.
Speaker:Now we actually trust each other more.
Speaker:Now there's more safety.
Speaker:So both of those things are
Speaker:happening and that can
Speaker:bring the passion and the spark back.
Speaker:And I, I, this is where my brain goes.
Speaker:That's not a DIY process, right?
Speaker:It's usually not.
Speaker:I don't think I would have
Speaker:the emotional intelligence
Speaker:with all the triggers and
Speaker:wounds that are coming up for me.
Speaker:And it's like, yep,
Speaker:that's reason number thirty eight.
Speaker:Why you need a professional
Speaker:guiding you through this process?
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:I guess there's a cautionary tale in there,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:It's like, if you, if you try,
Speaker:cause you know,
Speaker:God knows I've tried and my
Speaker:wife's tried and everybody in our,
Speaker:in our relationship,
Speaker:like you try to have those
Speaker:honest conversations,
Speaker:but they don't come out right.
Speaker:Because there's a wound in there.
Speaker:And then all of a sudden it
Speaker:just becomes one little like ink.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And holding space equally.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's really important.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I was working with a couple
Speaker:of recently and it's,
Speaker:it's so interesting.
Speaker:Cause it can.
Speaker:it can open up in unexpected
Speaker:ways or like intimacy can
Speaker:happen or love can happen
Speaker:in unexpected ways.
Speaker:And usually, you know,
Speaker:the hardest moments are
Speaker:when both of us are in our triggers.
Speaker:And so if one person can
Speaker:regain that maturity or
Speaker:whatever you want to say,
Speaker:like we can kind of step
Speaker:into our adult parts enough to be like,
Speaker:Oh,
Speaker:it looks like you're really
Speaker:suffering over there.
Speaker:You know, there's something going on,
Speaker:even though I'm feeling attacked,
Speaker:if I can be like, okay,
Speaker:I'm feeling attacked and
Speaker:you must be really hurting
Speaker:if you're attacking me in that way.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:I mean, that's not easy,
Speaker:but I was working with a
Speaker:couple where one of them,
Speaker:I was having them really
Speaker:look at each other and look
Speaker:into each other's eyes.
Speaker:And I can't remember exactly
Speaker:what we were doing, but it was,
Speaker:trying to have compassion for each other,
Speaker:basically, I think in that moment.
Speaker:And one of them found it, right?
Speaker:Found it in their hearts to
Speaker:look at the other one and be like, okay,
Speaker:I actually am having empathy for you.
Speaker:And as I had her speak it out loud,
Speaker:it happened to be the woman that time,
Speaker:the man, it impacted him.
Speaker:Like his heart softened and, you know,
Speaker:It's like I often say in my book, actually,
Speaker:I have this phrase called
Speaker:the race to vulnerability,
Speaker:which one of my colleagues
Speaker:coined the term with her husband.
Speaker:And they have this game of
Speaker:who can get most vulnerable first.
Speaker:Because vulnerable in that
Speaker:sense of I'm not attacking,
Speaker:I'm not blaming, I'm not shaming,
Speaker:I'm going to actually be my
Speaker:mature part first.
Speaker:And then it changes the
Speaker:dynamic between two people
Speaker:if the other one is willing
Speaker:to be on board and play that game too.
Speaker:I think that's a huge piece
Speaker:that I think friction comes, right?
Speaker:It's like when there's not a
Speaker:willingness to participate.
Speaker:And it has to go both ways
Speaker:too because it's a perceptual thing.
Speaker:But it's also, to me,
Speaker:it's an energy thing.
Speaker:It's like if you don't feel it,
Speaker:you're not going to feel it.
Speaker:And especially like...
Speaker:I don't want to, but for, for men,
Speaker:we're here, right?
Speaker:Most of the time.
Speaker:And it's like,
Speaker:the fun part is getting here,
Speaker:but we're very analytical.
Speaker:So we think about words and, and analytics,
Speaker:but like women, it's like,
Speaker:I could walk in the door
Speaker:and not do anything.
Speaker:And my wife knows she knows notes.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And it's kind of one of
Speaker:those things where.
Speaker:You got to have it on both ways.
Speaker:And it's really cool in that space.
Speaker:And I have also worked,
Speaker:I think I tend to work with
Speaker:a lot of men who are
Speaker:feelers and who are
Speaker:sensitive and they're the
Speaker:women in their lives are a
Speaker:little more intellectual or, you know,
Speaker:goal oriented and,
Speaker:or maybe they're super successful in work,
Speaker:but then they come home.
Speaker:And if they have a woman who
Speaker:is more intellectual and very driven,
Speaker:it's hard for that kind of
Speaker:couple to find their hearts
Speaker:together and to find a
Speaker:different way of relating
Speaker:than happens during the day
Speaker:in the office.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:my wife's awesome and she's great,
Speaker:but she's very like, get,
Speaker:get stuff done with the girls, the things,
Speaker:the, the, the check,
Speaker:I call it the check boxes.
Speaker:And it's one of her,
Speaker:it's one of her triggers because it's,
Speaker:it's like,
Speaker:I need the softness when I come
Speaker:home from work.
Speaker:And it's like,
Speaker:go take a shower and I'm
Speaker:like I gotta you know and
Speaker:it's like one of those
Speaker:things where we've been
Speaker:working on that too it's
Speaker:like and it's just a
Speaker:dynamic right you said like
Speaker:it's that dynamic because
Speaker:I'm I am feely and I'll go
Speaker:into those things and it's
Speaker:like oh my god that's a lot
Speaker:well yeah and I have that
Speaker:tendency I definitely have
Speaker:whether you want to call it
Speaker:masculine feminine or the
Speaker:The do, do, do.
Speaker:I'm a doer.
Speaker:It's fire too, right?
Speaker:It's that fire.
Speaker:There's some fire there too.
Speaker:And what often helps me,
Speaker:if my partner gets afraid
Speaker:of that or is kind of like,
Speaker:mad at me for being that,
Speaker:then I will kind of just go
Speaker:there more because it's a
Speaker:way to stay out of my heart
Speaker:or my tenderness or vulnerability.
Speaker:It's like, you know, I'm getting shit,
Speaker:at least some, I can control something.
Speaker:And when he's like, are you okay?
Speaker:How are you doing?
Speaker:Or what, you know,
Speaker:could we pause for a minute or, you know,
Speaker:just when, when he can be in it with me,
Speaker:not judging me, actually celebrating like,
Speaker:holy shit, you're amazing.
Speaker:You're getting all this done.
Speaker:And I actually, you know,
Speaker:I know you need a little more rest.
Speaker:I know you need a little
Speaker:more downtime recently.
Speaker:How could we create that for
Speaker:you right now?
Speaker:Like what, what, you know,
Speaker:and getting curious together,
Speaker:what would have you be able
Speaker:to slow down a little bit in this moment?
Speaker:Is there help that you need
Speaker:or is there something else
Speaker:that you need or right?
Speaker:How do we, how do we co-create this?
Speaker:Well, it all goes back to that.
Speaker:mature, like respond, not react.
Speaker:Cause he always can go both ways, you know,
Speaker:and it's looking at that space.
Speaker:Um, let's,
Speaker:let's talk about men in vulnerability.
Speaker:Your Ted talk was awesome.
Speaker:I loved it.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:it explores the emotional landscape of
Speaker:men in vulnerability and, and
Speaker:and you those thousand men
Speaker:like what did they teach
Speaker:you about that deeper need
Speaker:beneath the surface because
Speaker:you've been working on this
Speaker:a lot and you're in my
Speaker:groups you're in my men's
Speaker:groups you're in my things
Speaker:like this is a big piece
Speaker:for a lot of men to teach
Speaker:and I I think your voice is
Speaker:very powerful here
Speaker:especially coming from a woman like
Speaker:Tell us a little bit more
Speaker:about what inspired you for
Speaker:that TED Talks and like
Speaker:really what's underneath it,
Speaker:because I think it's really powerful.
Speaker:And we'll put the links in
Speaker:so people can see it.
Speaker:But when I saw it, I was like, uh-huh.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:I need more of those folks
Speaker:out there talking about this.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I think that what inspired me was
Speaker:realizing that it's not just tears,
Speaker:but I've had, you know,
Speaker:what I probably...
Speaker:thousand men or more like
Speaker:open their hearts and and
Speaker:many of them have cried in
Speaker:some moment or another with
Speaker:some kind of realization of
Speaker:oh I haven't felt seen or
Speaker:understood or supported or
Speaker:you know any any of the
Speaker:things the pain I'm scared
Speaker:of this I'm hurting about this and
Speaker:And in our culture, most men, I would say,
Speaker:don't feel safe to open up
Speaker:about that and to let their
Speaker:tears or emotions be seen
Speaker:or heard or felt.
Speaker:And I've heard so many men say,
Speaker:and I've seen this too,
Speaker:women say they want,
Speaker:if they're in a heterosexual relationship,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Women say they want
Speaker:vulnerability but when I
Speaker:open up about it they kind
Speaker:of go into fixer mode which
Speaker:many people think is the
Speaker:opposite right men try to
Speaker:fix women which I think can
Speaker:happen too um either they
Speaker:try to fix me they get
Speaker:disgusted by me you know
Speaker:they they think they want
Speaker:me vulnerable but then they
Speaker:want me to just like put it
Speaker:all back together and so my
Speaker:sense of it is the more we
Speaker:grow and evolve
Speaker:the more we can take turns
Speaker:holding each other, right?
Speaker:Like, hey,
Speaker:you're feeling vulnerable about this.
Speaker:You've got this struggle.
Speaker:I can be with you.
Speaker:I can hold you.
Speaker:I can see you in your best
Speaker:and your highest and not
Speaker:judge you and not have all
Speaker:these stories that you're
Speaker:weak or you're bad.
Speaker:Or now that you've cried in front of me,
Speaker:you're never going to be
Speaker:able to be that strong,
Speaker:powerful person again.
Speaker:right?
Speaker:And then vice versa,
Speaker:we can do the same for the other partner.
Speaker:And I think most people
Speaker:don't get to a place where
Speaker:they can have those kinds
Speaker:of relationships.
Speaker:And again,
Speaker:it's not always easy to get
Speaker:there by yourself.
Speaker:It takes often someone to
Speaker:guide or someone to say like, okay,
Speaker:do you see how you're
Speaker:impacting your partner right now?
Speaker:And what's going on for you with
Speaker:compassion, right?
Speaker:Let's explore this,
Speaker:not let's make you wrong
Speaker:and you need to do something different,
Speaker:but where's that coming from?
Speaker:What's going on in there?
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:It had me thinking about
Speaker:sort of a question that
Speaker:supports some of that is,
Speaker:what do you wish more women
Speaker:understood about the
Speaker:internal world of men?
Speaker:Oh, I love that question.
Speaker:And vice versa.
Speaker:Okay,
Speaker:so I wish that women understood that
Speaker:as you make space for a
Speaker:man's vulnerability,
Speaker:what often happens is he feels stronger.
Speaker:He feels like he doesn't
Speaker:have to hide parts of himself from you.
Speaker:He...
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:feels more like there's a release
Speaker:valve where he's not
Speaker:holding the world up on his
Speaker:shoulders and the only one
Speaker:and the responsible one,
Speaker:he gets to start to feel
Speaker:more like there is team and
Speaker:he's being held.
Speaker:And I often watch men go from
Speaker:okay, I can feel, I can release this,
Speaker:I can be not alone.
Speaker:And then like,
Speaker:I can conquer the world again,
Speaker:or I can live my purpose
Speaker:and I feel stronger and
Speaker:more alive and more capable
Speaker:because I've allowed some
Speaker:of this to move through me.
Speaker:And I did make a distinction
Speaker:in the TED Talk where
Speaker:there's a vulnerability
Speaker:from a place of sovereignty, right?
Speaker:A vulnerability from a place of like,
Speaker:I know I'm a good human.
Speaker:I don't have to apologize
Speaker:for the fact that I'm
Speaker:scared or I'm uncertain or
Speaker:I'm feeling sad or grieving right now.
Speaker:I don't need you to hold this for me,
Speaker:but I do need to be in it together.
Speaker:right?
Speaker:I don't need you to be like,
Speaker:so as I described it as a
Speaker:different difference between a hot potato,
Speaker:like I'm throwing you my vulnerability,
Speaker:because I'm like, please hold it, save me,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:I can't do it is very different from,
Speaker:I am feeling a lot.
Speaker:I know I'm a strong person,
Speaker:let's say man in this moment,
Speaker:like I know I'm a strong man.
Speaker:And I'm having a moment of uncertainty,
Speaker:or vulnerability, I will get through this,
Speaker:I know, ultimately, I will.
Speaker:And
Speaker:I will get through it, you know,
Speaker:in a more powerful way.
Speaker:If we can be in this
Speaker:together versus I have to
Speaker:like go off to my man cave,
Speaker:deal with it alone,
Speaker:put myself back together
Speaker:and then come back to you
Speaker:and be somehow perfect.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:On so many levels.
Speaker:Cause it's like, yes,
Speaker:that's exactly what I want
Speaker:my wife and other women to know.
Speaker:Like, cause we,
Speaker:we want to feel that
Speaker:there's an innate love.
Speaker:what I grabbed from that is
Speaker:what you don't know about that, right?
Speaker:What you don't know about
Speaker:that is being able to
Speaker:express that as I don't need,
Speaker:I don't really necessarily
Speaker:want you to fix it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like you said,
Speaker:and it's not just holding space.
Speaker:Cause I think we say that a lot now,
Speaker:but it's like it, the end result is,
Speaker:you are seen you're understood and you're,
Speaker:you're, you're perfectly imperfect, but,
Speaker:but the after effect is recharged.
Speaker:Like you now can put that
Speaker:stuff back on and run.
Speaker:Like, and that's,
Speaker:that's what I feel a lot of
Speaker:men are craving right now
Speaker:is they want their woman or
Speaker:their partner to, to be a partner.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:To be the... Yeah.
Speaker:And I always just say this.
Speaker:It's like you're along the ride together.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You don't have to pull the cart.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:But you also don't have
Speaker:to... You can do it in different ways.
Speaker:And I think that's where that magic lives.
Speaker:And I think that... Yeah.
Speaker:And that's where honesty comes in too.
Speaker:Because it's like...
Speaker:all right,
Speaker:maybe I am the kind of person who,
Speaker:you know, beyond gender,
Speaker:we're all different.
Speaker:And there are ways that many
Speaker:of us like to organize
Speaker:ourselves or be in control.
Speaker:And, you know,
Speaker:and it's different from our
Speaker:partner's ways of doing all of that.
Speaker:But if we can actually know
Speaker:and honor and have compassion for, oh,
Speaker:you do it this way because
Speaker:of that's what happened in
Speaker:your family dynamic growing up.
Speaker:And so, right,
Speaker:like I am a very on time person.
Speaker:because in my family there
Speaker:was so much fighting and it
Speaker:got even worse when
Speaker:everybody was running late.
Speaker:It was just like,
Speaker:it was such a shit show and
Speaker:it was so hard for me as a young person.
Speaker:And so now I'm like rarely late.
Speaker:It's almost like a
Speaker:celebration if I can get
Speaker:myself to be late for something.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But my, in my marriage,
Speaker:he was a very much slower paced,
Speaker:also ADHD.
Speaker:So time is kind of timeless and doesn't,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:doesn't quite make sense in
Speaker:the same way and and then
Speaker:we would have this friction
Speaker:and it was a place where at
Speaker:that point neither one of
Speaker:us was mature enough to
Speaker:co-create a solution you
Speaker:know like oh this is going
Speaker:to frustrate the shit out
Speaker:of us for the rest of our
Speaker:lives unless we actually
Speaker:figure out how do we
Speaker:navigate this together
Speaker:that's the key the
Speaker:relationship right you got
Speaker:to live with each other you
Speaker:can't just change his first
Speaker:because he's like it's me like I'm
Speaker:flowy it's like there's a
Speaker:thing going on and I'm I'm
Speaker:like routinely three
Speaker:minutes behind because I
Speaker:overstuffed my taco of my
Speaker:schedule you know it's like
Speaker:so three minutes is kind of
Speaker:amazing versus you know
Speaker:well it's generally there
Speaker:but it's like I I don't
Speaker:know where it comes from
Speaker:and I have add I think I
Speaker:don't know it doesn't
Speaker:matter it's like but that's
Speaker:me it's like and then
Speaker:my wife,
Speaker:the friction's there because she's like,
Speaker:you said you'd be here at four.
Speaker:And I'm like, ah, yeah.
Speaker:And so we play with it because-
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:it's that playfulness that I
Speaker:think really works is because you could,
Speaker:yes,
Speaker:you could always go down that place
Speaker:and then, well, and yeah,
Speaker:that deeper place where it's like, okay,
Speaker:why does it bother someone so much?
Speaker:Usually we feel dishonored, disrespected.
Speaker:I, you know,
Speaker:I could have used that time
Speaker:for someone who's a doers.
Speaker:Like I could have used those
Speaker:extra ten minutes or those
Speaker:twenty minutes if I had known.
Speaker:And so then,
Speaker:How do we communicate about it?
Speaker:Oh, you're actually running late.
Speaker:OK, well,
Speaker:then I'm going to go do a thing I
Speaker:need to do so I can use this time.
Speaker:And then I'm going to be ten
Speaker:minutes later if you're
Speaker:going to be that minutes
Speaker:late so I can get this other thing done.
Speaker:If we can actually
Speaker:communicate and be honest with each other,
Speaker:then there are more ways to
Speaker:work things out.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:It's beautiful.
Speaker:I have so many questions.
Speaker:Just like this is such a fun
Speaker:conversation for me.
Speaker:And we're wrapping up too.
Speaker:When you work with clients
Speaker:and you shift that,
Speaker:you shift how they relate,
Speaker:you shift how they
Speaker:communicate and connect,
Speaker:how does this emotional and
Speaker:relational healing ripple
Speaker:out into that physical
Speaker:health that you were talking about?
Speaker:like what comes first, right?
Speaker:It's like, do you communicate better?
Speaker:Do you try to be seen?
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:where do you start people in that space?
Speaker:And then what does, is it,
Speaker:I probably know the answer
Speaker:because there's never one answer,
Speaker:but like, you know, I'm thinking about it,
Speaker:not just from that analytical perspective,
Speaker:but, you know,
Speaker:we want to move in that direction, right?
Speaker:And so where does that lie?
Speaker:I know that was big.
Speaker:I was working with a client,
Speaker:who he was like,
Speaker:I want to have conversations with my wife,
Speaker:but they'd never go well.
Speaker:And so she wants to know me,
Speaker:but I no longer feel safe
Speaker:to share things with her.
Speaker:And so we talked about the
Speaker:foundation of having a
Speaker:conversation about how we communicate,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Or having some agreements,
Speaker:like maybe it's something very concrete,
Speaker:like we're each going to speak
Speaker:until we finish we're like
Speaker:we're gonna let each we're
Speaker:gonna have a talking stick
Speaker:basically or I'm gonna put
Speaker:on a timer and you get to
Speaker:speak for five minutes and
Speaker:I'm not going to interrupt
Speaker:you and then I'm going to
Speaker:speak for five minutes and
Speaker:we're not going to
Speaker:interrupt each other right
Speaker:or we reflect back to see
Speaker:am I really understanding
Speaker:you so it could be things
Speaker:like that it can also be
Speaker:agreements like I am going to
Speaker:listen through compassion, right,
Speaker:instead of my judgments, which, again,
Speaker:you know, that may sound a little woo woo,
Speaker:but it's like,
Speaker:if we really notice how
Speaker:often we're listening
Speaker:through trying to be right
Speaker:or judging someone,
Speaker:we don't then really
Speaker:understand what somebody
Speaker:else is going through.
Speaker:So
Speaker:all right, when we have a conflict,
Speaker:we're going to practice
Speaker:listening with compassion
Speaker:instead of judgment, you know,
Speaker:different ways to that,
Speaker:that to me is the foundation,
Speaker:because if we can't
Speaker:communicate so that we
Speaker:actually know each other,
Speaker:neither one of us is going
Speaker:to feel good or safe in
Speaker:this relationship.
Speaker:And neither one of us is
Speaker:going to feel turned on because
Speaker:Likely we're just going to
Speaker:feel irritated and
Speaker:resentful and pissed off at each other,
Speaker:or we're going to feel dull
Speaker:and like roommates with each other.
Speaker:Is that what you thought I
Speaker:was going to say?
Speaker:No, I have no expectation on these things.
Speaker:I love hearing everyone
Speaker:else's point of view and in
Speaker:the way and manner in which
Speaker:they provide it because
Speaker:it's through their own experiences,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:We've taught all,
Speaker:there's so many dynamics in
Speaker:a relational aspect.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:When you work with men's vitality.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So as you work with men's vitality,
Speaker:that has me curious,
Speaker:like what are the things that drain you?
Speaker:that vitality or is there
Speaker:anything that that stands
Speaker:out for you well again it's
Speaker:it's it's again it's sort
Speaker:of like that the wounded
Speaker:healer's journey you heal
Speaker:yourself and then you start
Speaker:working with others in in
Speaker:the capacity that you've
Speaker:already I don't want to say
Speaker:mastered but you're
Speaker:familiar with yeah and I've
Speaker:done I'm in a lot of men's
Speaker:work I've done men's
Speaker:circles for a long time and
Speaker:I'm in the dad's group that
Speaker:you know I'm in and
Speaker:It's like when I,
Speaker:in my own journey from here
Speaker:to here and really
Speaker:understanding what that is
Speaker:and becoming this authentic
Speaker:masculine male figure
Speaker:and still seeing the wounds
Speaker:come up in my personal
Speaker:relationships and my family
Speaker:and with my daughters,
Speaker:it's like we're moving through that.
Speaker:And the commonality is also
Speaker:beautiful to have like
Speaker:being in circle with men,
Speaker:being able for us to talk
Speaker:out when we don't feel safe
Speaker:talking at home.
Speaker:That's super, super important.
Speaker:And so therapeutic.
Speaker:And I think being in men's
Speaker:circles and men's groups
Speaker:has been a big part of my journey
Speaker:of discovery because you're
Speaker:in an open container where
Speaker:men aren't used to doing that.
Speaker:And you see people crying
Speaker:and you see people who are not weak.
Speaker:And like all this stuff
Speaker:you've talked about is like,
Speaker:it's a super safe container.
Speaker:It's like,
Speaker:I can say anything I effing want in here.
Speaker:And we welcome friction and
Speaker:there's friction between
Speaker:the men and we just don't
Speaker:express it violently.
Speaker:So I think when I've been for vitality,
Speaker:because I think that's really the key,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Men want to be the provider.
Speaker:They wanna be the safety.
Speaker:They wanna be that embodied
Speaker:male who can hold all that
Speaker:energy and to be the safety
Speaker:that the partner and the family needs,
Speaker:not just physically, but emotionally.
Speaker:And to do on all that,
Speaker:I think a lot of men feel
Speaker:like they do have all that
Speaker:on their shoulders.
Speaker:And sometimes they don't
Speaker:have that release valve.
Speaker:And it's draining,
Speaker:especially if you are a
Speaker:healer or you're an empath or you're,
Speaker:you're a highly sensitive person.
Speaker:I'd say that from a clinical
Speaker:perspective where you feel
Speaker:the feels differently.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Cause I know a lot of hard
Speaker:men and a lot of hard women.
Speaker:They're just like, yeah, whatever.
Speaker:I don't give a,
Speaker:I don't give a shit about that.
Speaker:Like, I'm like, I don't do that.
Speaker:Like I feel it.
Speaker:And so it's, it's that play with,
Speaker:with it is like, if,
Speaker:Again,
Speaker:I think what you said was powerful
Speaker:about that piece where if
Speaker:our partners and the people
Speaker:we're closest to,
Speaker:it doesn't necessarily have
Speaker:to be our life partner.
Speaker:It could be our work partner.
Speaker:My wife at work is my number two here,
Speaker:and she's a female.
Speaker:We get along really well
Speaker:because we get each other
Speaker:and we hear each other out, right?
Speaker:So there's always these
Speaker:interpersonal relationships.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I think for me,
Speaker:when I'm working with
Speaker:vitality and then of course
Speaker:you work on testosterone and the body,
Speaker:but it's really the mind
Speaker:body connections and that
Speaker:energetics that I really
Speaker:strive for to help teach
Speaker:men to understand.
Speaker:Cause there's a lot and there's,
Speaker:and I think you've hit it
Speaker:on a different degree.
Speaker:And this is why I love
Speaker:working with people that
Speaker:are in the same circles,
Speaker:because I would love for
Speaker:you to be on like talking
Speaker:to the groups because men,
Speaker:we get to this place where
Speaker:we feel like we have to
Speaker:hold all that crazy energy, like you said,
Speaker:and the emotions coming from, from our,
Speaker:our,
Speaker:our female counterparts and our partners.
Speaker:But we also have that container where
Speaker:We do get emotional in
Speaker:different ways and we,
Speaker:we need that as well.
Speaker:It's like that.
Speaker:It's like, and there's a place for that.
Speaker:And I think you've, you've,
Speaker:you've hit really good topic here because,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:we're opening these things up like,
Speaker:you know, fifty years ago,
Speaker:this was not talked about.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We're literally.
Speaker:The woman stays home.
Speaker:The man goes to work.
Speaker:They stay married, miserable.
Speaker:And that's what the people
Speaker:do because you do it for the kids.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And now we're just where
Speaker:this dynamic is changing.
Speaker:And I think it's so nice to see.
Speaker:Not only the men's work coming through,
Speaker:but like you and I talked about it,
Speaker:like there's this opening up like we're.
Speaker:you know, menopause is a real thing.
Speaker:It's not this, we,
Speaker:we spend so much energy
Speaker:putting a female through
Speaker:childhood and into becoming a woman.
Speaker:Like there's this big deal
Speaker:about hitting puberty and
Speaker:all the emotions.
Speaker:My daughter's in it, right?
Speaker:She's eleven.
Speaker:She's, she's feeling the feels.
Speaker:which is why I feel like I
Speaker:need to do my work because
Speaker:I got to stay grounded and
Speaker:I'm not grounded all the time.
Speaker:But then on the other side,
Speaker:you and my wife,
Speaker:they're on the perimenopausal side,
Speaker:but we don't put any energy into it.
Speaker:In fact,
Speaker:it's just becoming normalized that
Speaker:it's an actual thing.
Speaker:It's not a woo-woo thing.
Speaker:It's just something that happens with age.
Speaker:There's a big shift on these
Speaker:two sides of the equation.
Speaker:Apparently,
Speaker:this is what the universe wants
Speaker:me to learn.
Speaker:I have it on both sides at the same time.
Speaker:Oh my God.
Speaker:That's wild.
Speaker:And I have a dog puppy who's
Speaker:a female and I never
Speaker:thought I'd have her.
Speaker:And she's going into her, her first heat.
Speaker:It's like a triple is fun.
Speaker:It's so much fun.
Speaker:So crazy.
Speaker:Well, going with that is like, we're,
Speaker:we're seeing it on both sides.
Speaker:Like there's,
Speaker:it's not andropause and we're
Speaker:going through this thing.
Speaker:It's like, no,
Speaker:there's a vitality component
Speaker:that drains our energy.
Speaker:And when I hit it from an
Speaker:energetics perspective,
Speaker:it seems as though that
Speaker:other stuff folds through.
Speaker:And I think what most people
Speaker:do is they just look at the
Speaker:physicality of it.
Speaker:And I think doing it,
Speaker:it's kind of like doing you
Speaker:first before you do your family,
Speaker:before you do your business,
Speaker:before you do your relationship.
Speaker:You touched on that.
Speaker:Like, I feel very strongly,
Speaker:you gotta do you first.
Speaker:Yeah, well,
Speaker:you gotta have you to be able
Speaker:to bring into- Yeah.
Speaker:relationship so I mean I'm
Speaker:just looking at time and
Speaker:realizing I have to wrap up
Speaker:but is there any last thing
Speaker:that you want or need I
Speaker:will one how do people work
Speaker:with you and find you okay
Speaker:um and they always ask this
Speaker:one question is like out of
Speaker:this whole thing what is
Speaker:the one thing you want
Speaker:people to know okay so to
Speaker:work with me and one of the
Speaker:the great ways that you can
Speaker:find my work is if you
Speaker:want to read the book,
Speaker:there's a free virtual copy.
Speaker:So if you go to
Speaker:shanajamescoaching.com slash free,
Speaker:you get a free virtual copy
Speaker:of Honest Sex.
Speaker:And I also created a quiz
Speaker:around what are the blocks
Speaker:to having the best love and
Speaker:sex of your life, especially after forty.
Speaker:So that one is
Speaker:shanajamescoaching.com slash quiz.
Speaker:And yeah, you can find my podcast,
Speaker:Man Alive, Practicing Love.
Speaker:I'm out there on those all
Speaker:the podcast places.
Speaker:So definitely, and just reach out Shayna,
Speaker:Shayna, jamescoaching.com.
Speaker:If you have questions,
Speaker:happy to answer them.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:I just go back to communication and like,
Speaker:I guess underlying
Speaker:communication is that
Speaker:honesty with yourself, you know,
Speaker:can you give yourself
Speaker:permission to know what you need,
Speaker:know what you want, know what you like,
Speaker:don't like what hurts you,
Speaker:what feels good.
Speaker:And then.
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:be able to communicate that in a
Speaker:way that brings someone closer to you.
Speaker:And there's no shame in
Speaker:getting help because it is
Speaker:not an easy thing.
Speaker:None of us were taught that
Speaker:most of us were not taught
Speaker:this growing up.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:I love, thank you for having me.
Speaker:I love beautiful harmonic people.
Speaker:Like just you're doing good in the world.
Speaker:You're doing it for the right reasons.
Speaker:There's no forcing in anything.
Speaker:It's just like we, when we first met,
Speaker:we instantly connected.
Speaker:It's because we,
Speaker:you're doing really good work.
Speaker:You're expressing yourself
Speaker:in such beautiful ways and you're helping
Speaker:helping people in ways that
Speaker:we haven't helped people before.
Speaker:And that to me is just super powerful.
Speaker:So for me, thank you so much.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:I love what you're doing.
Speaker:Of course,
Speaker:we no doubt will work together more.
Speaker:But thanks so much for
Speaker:showing up in the way that
Speaker:you do and helping men,
Speaker:helping relationships, helping women,
Speaker:and ultimately helping kids,
Speaker:because that's the deep
Speaker:part when you help kids too.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:Go check her out.
Speaker:shanajamescoaching.com.
Speaker:We got it all.
Speaker:I can't wait to dive into
Speaker:that book a little bit more.
Speaker:Thank you so much, my friend.
Speaker:You're welcome.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:All right, guys, that's a wrap.
Speaker:Until next time, stay well.
