#74: From Burnout to Balance: Reclaiming Joy in Medicine with Dr. Mary Leung
From Burnout to Balance: Reclaiming Joy in Medicine with Dr. Mary Leung
In this inspiring episode of Beyond The Pills, we sit down with Dr. Mary Leung—a triple board-certified physician in internal medicine, medical oncology, and hematology—who is on a mission to help fellow physicians rediscover joy, purpose, and peace through the power of mindset and gratitude.
After years of late-night charting and weekend burnout, Dr. Mary transformed her life through life coaching. Now, she’s leaving work 2.5 hours earlier and has founded Shining With Gratitude MD to guide other overwhelmed physicians to do the same. Through her journey, she’s learned that practicing medicine doesn’t have to mean sacrificing your well-being—and that with the right mindset, physicians can thrive again.
Whether you're in healthcare or simply navigating your own burnout, this conversation offers powerful tools for clarity, control, and renewed passion for your calling.
🩺 Key topics we explore:
- How Dr. Mary reclaimed time and energy through coaching
- The role of gratitude and mindset in healing burnout
- Simple practices that help physicians (and anyone) feel more fulfilled
- Insights from her new book, Made For More 2
💡 You can love your life and love practicing medicine. Let Dr. Mary show you how.
📲 Connect with Dr. Mary Leung:
Website: www.shiningwithgratitudemd.com
Transcript
Hello, hello.
Speaker:Welcome to this episode of
Speaker:Beyond the Pilled.
Speaker:My name is Josh Rimini,
Speaker:pharmacist turned healer.
Speaker:And today we're diving into
Speaker:the world of physician
Speaker:well-being with a truly inspiring guest.
Speaker:Our guest today is Dr. Mary Leung,
Speaker:a board certified physician
Speaker:in internal medicine.
Speaker:She's in medical oncology and hematology,
Speaker:as well as a certified life coach.
Speaker:Dr. Mary knows firsthand the
Speaker:stress and burnout that
Speaker:many physicians face.
Speaker:After years of working late
Speaker:nights and weekends,
Speaker:she discovered the
Speaker:transformative power of life coaching,
Speaker:which allowed her to
Speaker:reclaim her life and time.
Speaker:Now through her platform,
Speaker:Shining with Gratitude MD,
Speaker:Dr. Mary helps other
Speaker:physicians regain control,
Speaker:find their joy in their
Speaker:work and create a balanced life.
Speaker:She's on a mission to guide
Speaker:physicians from feeling
Speaker:overwhelmed to
Speaker:rediscovering their passion
Speaker:for medicine through mindset shifts,
Speaker:gratitude, and celebration.
Speaker:Dr. Mary also recently coauthored the book,
Speaker:Made for More Too,
Speaker:where she shares her
Speaker:journey alongside other
Speaker:doctors who have chosen to
Speaker:practice medicine on their own terms.
Speaker:Get ready to be inspired as
Speaker:we explore Dr. Mary's story.
Speaker:of resilience and
Speaker:transformation and learn
Speaker:how we all can move beyond
Speaker:burnout and into a life of
Speaker:purpose and gratitude.
Speaker:Welcome to the show, Dr. Mary.
Speaker:Thank you so much, Josh,
Speaker:for having me today.
Speaker:This is exciting.
Speaker:When I saw you on the, and I read your bio,
Speaker:and I saw you, you know, getting on,
Speaker:you know, becoming a guest on the show,
Speaker:we've got a lot to talk
Speaker:about because of my history with burnout,
Speaker:transformation,
Speaker:even my own cancer journey.
Speaker:So let's just get started, shall we?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Can,
Speaker:can you share with us like these
Speaker:defining moments when you realized,
Speaker:especially in life coaching,
Speaker:like talk to us about your story,
Speaker:like your burnout,
Speaker:because we've had
Speaker:conversations on this podcast before,
Speaker:and we're going to continue
Speaker:to have more around.
Speaker:It's not only the evolution of healthcare,
Speaker:but it's the evolution of,
Speaker:of practicing medicine and
Speaker:practicing these things
Speaker:because it is a high burnout field.
Speaker:And we've had conversations on burnout.
Speaker:So I want the guests to hear
Speaker:your story on how you got
Speaker:to where you are in what
Speaker:we're going to be talking about today.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So my journey to medicine,
Speaker:I would say it's a pretty
Speaker:straightforward one.
Speaker:I've always wanted to be a physician,
Speaker:probably influenced by my parents.
Speaker:They're both, I mean, retired now,
Speaker:or they're so-called retired,
Speaker:but they're still doing things.
Speaker:They enjoy like lecturing and all.
Speaker:And so I just thought that I
Speaker:wanted to help people.
Speaker:And being a physician seemed
Speaker:to be the thing to do.
Speaker:Thankfully, they never...
Speaker:really gave me the pressure
Speaker:of becoming a doctor.
Speaker:So I just studied hard, you know,
Speaker:went into medical school, residency.
Speaker:And what I enjoy,
Speaker:what I really realized that
Speaker:I enjoy about medicine is
Speaker:that I like the long-term relationships.
Speaker:with the patients.
Speaker:So I want to take care of the patients,
Speaker:not just in episodic encounters.
Speaker:So then I chose oncology to
Speaker:be my specialty.
Speaker:And so when I landed my
Speaker:first attending job after fellowship,
Speaker:I thought, oh,
Speaker:You know that that's it.
Speaker:You know, I hit it.
Speaker:And and then shortly after that,
Speaker:I joined the private
Speaker:practice that I joined was very busy.
Speaker:And within a couple of months,
Speaker:my schedule was full.
Speaker:And slowly, gradually,
Speaker:I realized that I was going
Speaker:home later and later.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:to the point that I was just going home
Speaker:past seven, not because my work was done,
Speaker:but because I wanted to see my children,
Speaker:uh, before bedtime.
Speaker:And, um,
Speaker:and then I would be charting some
Speaker:more and, uh,
Speaker:sometimes it would be even
Speaker:charting over the weekends.
Speaker:And that went on for quite a few years.
Speaker:to the point that I was just
Speaker:feeling very exhausted.
Speaker:And I felt drained.
Speaker:And I felt that I was just
Speaker:going through the motions
Speaker:doing the routine.
Speaker:And I didn't really enjoy
Speaker:making or didn't really
Speaker:have the capacity to make
Speaker:real connections with my
Speaker:patients because I was so tired.
Speaker:And at that point,
Speaker:I think I have contemplated
Speaker:quitting quite a few times
Speaker:or changing into a part-time job.
Speaker:But then I'm in the New York
Speaker:metropolitan area, very saturated.
Speaker:Options are not a lot, I think.
Speaker:And also considering
Speaker:financial and all these other things that
Speaker:I just felt stuck in my job
Speaker:that I just kept going and going.
Speaker:And fast forward to the pandemic.
Speaker:So that was five years ago.
Speaker:And then everything was on a halt,
Speaker:except for
Speaker:medicine I guess in a sense
Speaker:I mean I wasn't in the
Speaker:first line um of defense
Speaker:for uh covet but we we
Speaker:still have to take care of
Speaker:our patients um we we try
Speaker:to schedule a lot of
Speaker:patients later on or um
Speaker:avoid them from coming in
Speaker:if it wasn't an urgent
Speaker:situation but there's still
Speaker:some cancer patients that
Speaker:we had to treat so I ended
Speaker:up seeing a third
Speaker:of the number of patients
Speaker:that I would normally be seeing.
Speaker:And all of a sudden,
Speaker:I was going home by four or five o'clock.
Speaker:with everything done.
Speaker:And that was amazing.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I didn't really want to have the pandemic,
Speaker:but I always believed that
Speaker:there's always something
Speaker:good coming out of something bad.
Speaker:And so then I had time to do other things.
Speaker:And I thought,
Speaker:what if I could do this on a
Speaker:regular basis, even when
Speaker:I would be seeing all the
Speaker:full load of patients.
Speaker:And that's when I discovered
Speaker:and had time to discover
Speaker:what life coaching was.
Speaker:Before that, I had no clue.
Speaker:I thought coaches were just for
Speaker:sports.
Speaker:And then I thought, well, it makes sense,
Speaker:the life coaching.
Speaker:I wanted to learn more about it.
Speaker:So I joined a group coaching
Speaker:program for women physicians.
Speaker:And shortly after that,
Speaker:I also wanted to have a
Speaker:deep dive about life coaching.
Speaker:So I joined a certification
Speaker:program shortly after that.
Speaker:And so in the meantime,
Speaker:I was working in my program
Speaker:with a coach about just
Speaker:being more efficient or
Speaker:going home on time because
Speaker:I realized that was the
Speaker:biggest obstacle for me
Speaker:enjoying life and enjoying
Speaker:practicing medicine because
Speaker:I was so drained from just
Speaker:working almost nonstop.
Speaker:So then just with, you know,
Speaker:I'm sure we'll talk a
Speaker:little bit more about it in a little bit.
Speaker:That's
Speaker:In about three months,
Speaker:I was able to go home by
Speaker:five thirty with all my work done.
Speaker:And at that time,
Speaker:I was already going back to
Speaker:seeing the full load of
Speaker:patients average about
Speaker:twenty five patients a day.
Speaker:And and that felt really wonderful.
Speaker:And I was able to.
Speaker:connect with not just my patients again,
Speaker:but also have better
Speaker:relationship with my family, you know,
Speaker:with my kids, with my husband.
Speaker:And I felt like a human being again.
Speaker:And I felt like I could really, you know,
Speaker:have more control back and
Speaker:yes nothing is perfect but
Speaker:that's okay because we're
Speaker:not perfect and I just feel
Speaker:like well what if I can
Speaker:just share this with other
Speaker:physicians since now I have
Speaker:time to do it and I have
Speaker:the mental capacity to do
Speaker:it so that's how I founded my
Speaker:company you know shining
Speaker:with gratitude empty
Speaker:because I'm just so
Speaker:grateful for what has
Speaker:happened to me and what has
Speaker:become of me and I'm
Speaker:sharing with other
Speaker:physicians so hopefully
Speaker:they get to also enjoy life
Speaker:and enjoy medicine again I
Speaker:love that the the stories are the the
Speaker:The formula generally is like the same,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:I always ask this because
Speaker:I've mentored and precepted
Speaker:three or four pharmacies in our day.
Speaker:And I asked pharmacists the same questions,
Speaker:like, why did you get into pharmacy?
Speaker:Why did you get into health care?
Speaker:And the first thing they say
Speaker:is I wanted to help people, right?
Speaker:We want to help people.
Speaker:We genuinely want to help people, right?
Speaker:and we go through school and
Speaker:we go through all the
Speaker:science and we go through
Speaker:all the residencies and all
Speaker:the and then we get out and
Speaker:then we we get it's almost
Speaker:like you become a product
Speaker:of the system right here's
Speaker:all your patients and
Speaker:you're moving through it
Speaker:and you're helping people
Speaker:but at the same time it's
Speaker:at our expense right it's
Speaker:at our own stress levels
Speaker:and all of a sudden it just
Speaker:becomes part of that wheel and then then
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:you had that aha moment with like,
Speaker:this doesn't, you know,
Speaker:the fortuitous component of COVID, right?
Speaker:Along with this isn't working.
Speaker:And so COVID, like you said,
Speaker:like even these things,
Speaker:there's a shining light at
Speaker:the end because you learned.
Speaker:at you could put your
Speaker:streamline your patient
Speaker:care get to this place and
Speaker:then all of a sudden you
Speaker:started to become full
Speaker:right this this bucket
Speaker:became full which helped
Speaker:spilled out over to your
Speaker:patient care and your
Speaker:family and all of a sudden
Speaker:you know I I love when I
Speaker:hear these stories because
Speaker:it's a similar track for me it's like
Speaker:There's a component as physicians and as,
Speaker:as healthcare workers and
Speaker:providers is choosing self
Speaker:first is not selfish.
Speaker:It's self full.
Speaker:And that's what my friend has told me.
Speaker:Like, um, my friend Brent Perkins has,
Speaker:has coined that phrase for me.
Speaker:Cause it's not self less.
Speaker:It's not selfish.
Speaker:It's self full.
Speaker:And you created that within
Speaker:yourself and then.
Speaker:Of course, you know,
Speaker:the A-type personalities that we are,
Speaker:it's like, hey, you wanted to learn more,
Speaker:but then you dove right in.
Speaker:Like, I want to be certified.
Speaker:And then you felt compelled
Speaker:to help other people, right?
Speaker:It wasn't just your journey of, oh,
Speaker:I learned life coaching,
Speaker:and I learned to put my
Speaker:self-care in front of all
Speaker:of the things I do, and it helped me.
Speaker:but there's this thing with
Speaker:wellness providers the same
Speaker:formula right you you help
Speaker:yourself you heal yourself
Speaker:and then you're compelled
Speaker:to heal others in your own
Speaker:way right your own way is
Speaker:shining with gratitude md
Speaker:because you're an md you
Speaker:want to help other mds
Speaker:because you know that
Speaker:there's a better way and so
Speaker:I love the smile on your
Speaker:face it's like the aha it's like so
Speaker:What were some of those, you know,
Speaker:initial challenges you
Speaker:faced when trying to
Speaker:reclaim that time and reversing burnout?
Speaker:Walk us through the process
Speaker:because I think that's really important,
Speaker:especially as providers and
Speaker:physicians and people that
Speaker:are listening is, you know,
Speaker:it's nice to hear stories
Speaker:of transformation, but it's almost like,
Speaker:well, what, almost like, what did you do?
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:what were the first steps that got
Speaker:you through that?
Speaker:Because in my belief,
Speaker:in my own healing journeys
Speaker:in different ways is I've
Speaker:come to this belief system
Speaker:that the only way forward
Speaker:is through and moving
Speaker:through it in a way.
Speaker:So talk to us a little bit
Speaker:about the initial
Speaker:challenges you face trying
Speaker:to reclaim that time and
Speaker:reducing that burnout.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So I think initially it's, you know,
Speaker:I didn't think that it was
Speaker:possible to change anything.
Speaker:I think that was the biggest
Speaker:challenge is the unbelief
Speaker:that I thought that, oh,
Speaker:I have done all things.
Speaker:I have tried everything.
Speaker:Nothing worked.
Speaker:I am still working these long hours.
Speaker:I'm still having all these charts to write,
Speaker:all these phone calls to make,
Speaker:return calls to the patients.
Speaker:And this is the time that I need
Speaker:to work through it,
Speaker:or I have too many patients
Speaker:in my schedule.
Speaker:So I think the belief shift is the very,
Speaker:very first step that I think everyone
Speaker:need to question is like, is it true?
Speaker:Is there another way?
Speaker:Is there another option?
Speaker:So I think that when you're
Speaker:questioning yourself,
Speaker:that really brings up the curiosity that,
Speaker:oh, maybe there is some other way.
Speaker:I mean, someone else has done it.
Speaker:Maybe that's a proof that it is possible.
Speaker:So I think that it's really
Speaker:shifting from the unbelief
Speaker:or the impossibility to,
Speaker:a little bit of hope of
Speaker:maybe it is possible.
Speaker:Because I think that when
Speaker:you don't believe that
Speaker:anything can happen,
Speaker:then it's not going to happen.
Speaker:It's like I always say,
Speaker:when you're trying to learn
Speaker:how to ride a bicycle,
Speaker:if you don't believe that you can do it,
Speaker:why would you even try hard to do it?
Speaker:So so I think it's important
Speaker:to believe that it is possible.
Speaker:You may not know how yet,
Speaker:but that's the very first
Speaker:step and be curious about it.
Speaker:And I and I think that's
Speaker:what I worked through initially, that
Speaker:it is possible for me to, you know,
Speaker:to have something different.
Speaker:And I think that was the
Speaker:biggest driving force for
Speaker:me to even took that leap
Speaker:of faith to join the life
Speaker:coaching program.
Speaker:And and then, you know, just
Speaker:I think with the little
Speaker:spark of hope is what
Speaker:drives to have a little bit more belief.
Speaker:And the more you do it,
Speaker:the more you see that, oh,
Speaker:maybe it is possible.
Speaker:And then you feel a little
Speaker:bit excitement inside you.
Speaker:And and then you you're more
Speaker:willing to try different things.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:maybe something doesn't work
Speaker:doesn't mean that it won't work at all.
Speaker:You know, in the end,
Speaker:you're still going to work something out.
Speaker:But just you may have to try
Speaker:twenty different things.
Speaker:Some people may may just
Speaker:have to try five different things.
Speaker:But I think it's just to
Speaker:keep going and also to be.
Speaker:OK to ask for help.
Speaker:And I think that a lot of times when,
Speaker:especially for physicians, it's like, oh,
Speaker:we're supposed to know everything.
Speaker:And we feel embarrassed to
Speaker:ask people for help.
Speaker:I mean, I've gone through that.
Speaker:I'm very
Speaker:open to asking for help and
Speaker:I think that it's not like
Speaker:oh I'm lazy and I don't
Speaker:want to think about it but
Speaker:it's like after you think
Speaker:about things and it's you
Speaker:just feel stuck and
Speaker:sometimes maybe someone
Speaker:else just have to say a
Speaker:sentence you're like oh
Speaker:that's what it is and I
Speaker:think that's what coaching
Speaker:is about too it's really
Speaker:for someone to guide you to um
Speaker:think of things differently
Speaker:and to use another angle
Speaker:and and you figure it out
Speaker:yourself it's just you just
Speaker:need some guidance to say
Speaker:oh this is how you can do
Speaker:it and and I think a lot of
Speaker:it is really how you think
Speaker:about the situation because if you're not
Speaker:uh conscious of what you're
Speaker:thinking then you may just
Speaker:go with your default
Speaker:thinking and believe that's
Speaker:true so I think it's just
Speaker:so important to really
Speaker:examine yourself and
Speaker:question what you're
Speaker:thinking and to ask
Speaker:yourself are there other
Speaker:ways to think of it because
Speaker:how you're thinking of
Speaker:things really affect how
Speaker:you feel and of course we
Speaker:human beings are emotional beings and
Speaker:what we do and how we act
Speaker:are really influenced by
Speaker:how we think about things.
Speaker:I firmly believe that.
Speaker:A lot of the work I've done
Speaker:with Dr. Joe Dispenza is in
Speaker:that same field,
Speaker:going from thinking and
Speaker:feeling and acting.
Speaker:And yes, belief.
Speaker:Belief is just a string of thoughts.
Speaker:and it's moving from your
Speaker:thinking and and yes we're
Speaker:emotional but like belief
Speaker:is the way I look at it in
Speaker:these days because we are
Speaker:in the realm of quantum
Speaker:realities multiple
Speaker:realities we know this now
Speaker:and so if there's an
Speaker:infinite amount of infinite
Speaker:possibilities then there's
Speaker:a possibility that you
Speaker:could become stress-free
Speaker:that you can run your
Speaker:business and your life and
Speaker:be a physician and a
Speaker:pharmacist in a high stress
Speaker:reality and still feel whole
Speaker:right that hope that
Speaker:curiosity I always call it
Speaker:like the beginner's mind
Speaker:right being curious around
Speaker:the opportunities that are
Speaker:in front of you and I I'm
Speaker:in the same boat I think
Speaker:the way I've always treated
Speaker:my own health and Journey
Speaker:and my own transformation is
Speaker:it you said it before like
Speaker:you may have to try it
Speaker:twenty times and some
Speaker:people might only have to
Speaker:try once or twice right
Speaker:just doesn't it's always
Speaker:individual so the way I
Speaker:look at it is you got to
Speaker:get up more than you get
Speaker:knocked down like if if
Speaker:you're gonna if you get
Speaker:knocked down a hundred
Speaker:times you got to get up a
Speaker:hundred and one because
Speaker:every time you get up
Speaker:there's a learning event
Speaker:there there's something
Speaker:that happened so I've
Speaker:always never I'm really
Speaker:trying to sort through my
Speaker:myself as well as like it's
Speaker:not good or bad it's
Speaker:It's like you're winning and
Speaker:you're learning, right?
Speaker:So these events that happen
Speaker:that we don't tend to prefer, or we don't,
Speaker:we label as a negative
Speaker:experience or a negative
Speaker:emotional experience, a depleting event.
Speaker:Well, I always try to just tell myself,
Speaker:what am I supposed to learn here, right?
Speaker:So I love that.
Speaker:And yes, I think being a coach,
Speaker:a life coach or a
Speaker:a mentor is really being that guide.
Speaker:Like you said, it's,
Speaker:it's guiding someone to
Speaker:that possibility of
Speaker:thinking about it from a different way.
Speaker:And the way I look at coaching,
Speaker:and I've always looked at
Speaker:it this way is when you think about it,
Speaker:coaches don't play the game.
Speaker:They coach, right?
Speaker:If we, you know,
Speaker:we're watching basketball when this,
Speaker:this was being recorded, right?
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:so the coach doesn't play in the game,
Speaker:but he offers
Speaker:the guidance, right?
Speaker:The guidance,
Speaker:it's the players that play the game.
Speaker:It's the patient, it's the person, right?
Speaker:It's the person playing
Speaker:their own health journey,
Speaker:their own life journey.
Speaker:But acting as a guide is how
Speaker:we can do it rather than
Speaker:figuring it out all on our own, right?
Speaker:If we did that, it just takes more time,
Speaker:more money, more energy.
Speaker:And that's why I feel having a mentor,
Speaker:having guides in your life
Speaker:has probably been the number one
Speaker:game changer for me for sure
Speaker:so I'm so glad that you're
Speaker:you were inspired so talk a
Speaker:little bit about what
Speaker:inspired you to create
Speaker:shining with gratitude md
Speaker:and what what kind of
Speaker:impact has it had on other
Speaker:physicians so far yes so so
Speaker:it it is really I just feel
Speaker:after being coached and
Speaker:after being able to achieve going home,
Speaker:well, initially it was five thirty.
Speaker:Now it's really consistently
Speaker:before five o'clock seeing
Speaker:the twenty some patients that I see.
Speaker:And I just feel refreshed.
Speaker:I feel recharged.
Speaker:I feel
Speaker:hopeful and grateful.
Speaker:I think my nature is really
Speaker:I want to help people.
Speaker:So instead of just helping patients,
Speaker:why don't I help other physicians?
Speaker:Because if I can help other
Speaker:physicians through this
Speaker:journey that I've gone through,
Speaker:in a much faster way or, you know,
Speaker:as you mentioned that, yes,
Speaker:maybe eventually individual
Speaker:physicians will figure it
Speaker:out what to do in terms of
Speaker:getting over burnout or
Speaker:have more work efficiency.
Speaker:But with a coach, it's just...
Speaker:a faster way and a more direct way to,
Speaker:to figure things out.
Speaker:And, and when you feel better,
Speaker:when you have more time to,
Speaker:for yourself and for other people, um,
Speaker:you have more capacity to really, um,
Speaker:have that care and that love,
Speaker:that kindness to give out
Speaker:to your patients.
Speaker:And I think, you know,
Speaker:it's like there's that unspoken language.
Speaker:When you go into a patient room,
Speaker:you can immediately sense that, oh,
Speaker:that patient is anxious or angry or,
Speaker:happier, you know,
Speaker:whatever the emotion is.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:And so it's the same way the
Speaker:other way around that, you know,
Speaker:the patients can feel how you're feeling.
Speaker:So if you're hopeful, if you're pleasant,
Speaker:you know, if you feel happy or peaceful,
Speaker:they can feel it.
Speaker:So I think that, you know, if
Speaker:the physicians that I coach
Speaker:can just give out that
Speaker:pleasant vibe for the patients.
Speaker:And I think that is really more than just
Speaker:addressing their diseases.
Speaker:So it really,
Speaker:really healing the patients
Speaker:as a whole person.
Speaker:And I think that's really
Speaker:what medicine is about.
Speaker:And I think that's, you know,
Speaker:that's what I want more
Speaker:physicians to have and,
Speaker:and not just be going through the motions,
Speaker:the routine and treat patients,
Speaker:practicing medicine as just another job.
Speaker:And I think that that will also, you know,
Speaker:with um with having more joy
Speaker:in life and in medicine
Speaker:it's just you'll also stay
Speaker:in medicine longer and not
Speaker:you know having um that
Speaker:mentality of oh I just want
Speaker:to leave this job and um so
Speaker:so I think that you know
Speaker:that's really what inspired
Speaker:me to do it because it's
Speaker:like hey I did it and I'm
Speaker:so much happier now and I'm
Speaker:so grateful for what i
Speaker:what has happened to me that
Speaker:I want to share with other people.
Speaker:And also within my own
Speaker:medicine practice is that I
Speaker:find myself just having more joy.
Speaker:Yes, oncology, it can be challenging.
Speaker:And there are times that are very,
Speaker:I would just say, not so happy times,
Speaker:especially when patients have progression
Speaker:of their disease,
Speaker:or when I have to talk
Speaker:about hospice or end of life discussions,
Speaker:at the same time is,
Speaker:I always find a way to give hope,
Speaker:you know, for the patient,
Speaker:it's not an unrealistic expectation.
Speaker:But just more to say, hey,
Speaker:you're not alone.
Speaker:You're here.
Speaker:We're guiding you.
Speaker:And and I think that, you know,
Speaker:especially for the anxious
Speaker:patients that usually after we we speak,
Speaker:you know, in our visit,
Speaker:they feel so much better.
Speaker:They feel less anxious because.
Speaker:I'm just truthful and honest
Speaker:and I speak from my heart.
Speaker:And I think to have that
Speaker:connection is what I did
Speaker:not have a few years ago
Speaker:just because I was just so
Speaker:drained and burned out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think there's some really
Speaker:good points in here from a
Speaker:perspective of a practitioner,
Speaker:especially in healthcare
Speaker:and beautiful and
Speaker:cancer and oncology because
Speaker:when we do treat the people,
Speaker:it's not a body part,
Speaker:we're not treating the
Speaker:person who has this function,
Speaker:the person that's moving
Speaker:through and having those connections,
Speaker:deep rooted connections
Speaker:with patients is people is because
Speaker:That's what we are.
Speaker:We're not just treating the
Speaker:thing or the body part or
Speaker:the dysfunction.
Speaker:We're treating the person.
Speaker:And when we shift our
Speaker:mindset and I really I me, too,
Speaker:I wear my heart on my
Speaker:sleeve and I definitely
Speaker:lead with my heart.
Speaker:And I we've done a whole
Speaker:we've done a whole podcast
Speaker:episode on the word
Speaker:connection because it's so important,
Speaker:not connecting with ourselves,
Speaker:connecting with our patients,
Speaker:connecting with
Speaker:the environment with
Speaker:something bigger right
Speaker:these things that
Speaker:especially in in because
Speaker:I'm I'm a leukemia survivor
Speaker:so I'm very in tuned to
Speaker:oncology hematology um and
Speaker:when I was I had acute
Speaker:lymphocytic leukemia and I
Speaker:went through the whole
Speaker:process of chemotherapy
Speaker:radiation everything and
Speaker:the connection with the
Speaker:nurses and my oncologist,
Speaker:who I'm still friends with today,
Speaker:was what I remembered most.
Speaker:Of course,
Speaker:it was a journey and there was a
Speaker:lot of harshness and a lot
Speaker:of like just sickness and
Speaker:moving through it.
Speaker:But again, it's that same belief,
Speaker:that same possibility of
Speaker:getting up more than you're
Speaker:getting knocked down and just showing up.
Speaker:But
Speaker:I remember the connection points, the care,
Speaker:it wasn't the chemo bag, right?
Speaker:It was, it was the care.
Speaker:And so I'm glad that you're,
Speaker:you're helping yourself and
Speaker:you're helping other physicians,
Speaker:moving them towards this
Speaker:coaching process and
Speaker:building that through.
Speaker:How do you approach guiding
Speaker:these physicians who might, you know,
Speaker:feel resistant or skeptical
Speaker:about this process?
Speaker:Like, you know, it starts with belief.
Speaker:It starts with curiosity and hope.
Speaker:We've talked about that.
Speaker:But what's your approach when you get,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:your physicians are finding you
Speaker:and they're getting through
Speaker:this process of like, hey, I'm here.
Speaker:I wanna be here.
Speaker:There's that tension,
Speaker:that resistance there,
Speaker:but what are some things
Speaker:that maybe you approach in
Speaker:your coaching process as
Speaker:they're getting used to
Speaker:something they may not have been used to?
Speaker:Yeah, I think I usually, early on,
Speaker:I share with them that, you know,
Speaker:be curious and open-minded, you know,
Speaker:about things,
Speaker:just about different possibilities.
Speaker:There may be things that you
Speaker:haven't thought about, but, you know,
Speaker:that may be something that's for you.
Speaker:So I think, you know, with that attitude,
Speaker:it just opens up, you know,
Speaker:a lot of doors that, you know,
Speaker:then the physicians are
Speaker:willing to try different things.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:most physicians are smart people
Speaker:and they've tried really a
Speaker:lot of different things
Speaker:even outside of medicine.
Speaker:So I think the first step is
Speaker:really just to be curious
Speaker:so you can question what
Speaker:you're doing and then also open up
Speaker:to say that, OK,
Speaker:maybe I can try different
Speaker:possibilities or different
Speaker:options of doing things,
Speaker:and also be open to see
Speaker:examples of what others
Speaker:have done because they are proof that,
Speaker:hey,
Speaker:Something can be done.
Speaker:It's like leaving work on time, you know,
Speaker:or at five o'clock after
Speaker:seeing twenty some patients.
Speaker:It is possible.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:you don't necessarily need
Speaker:technology to help you like, you know,
Speaker:yes, you know, yes, some people can.
Speaker:use ai for their scribe you
Speaker:know for but that's not
Speaker:necessarily the only you
Speaker:know way to do things and
Speaker:um uh and of course
Speaker:different people work
Speaker:differently and different
Speaker:styles and um and also
Speaker:different resources because
Speaker:if you're in different
Speaker:institutions you don't
Speaker:necessarily have the same
Speaker:um electronic medical
Speaker:record or you know staffing
Speaker:or anything but
Speaker:there is a way to work it out.
Speaker:And I think that just to get
Speaker:over that mindset shift is
Speaker:the most important thing.
Speaker:And then we just work little
Speaker:bit by little bit.
Speaker:It's just like when you're
Speaker:helping a patient to lose weight.
Speaker:If you say lose fifty pounds right now,
Speaker:that's like too much.
Speaker:you know it's too much for
Speaker:them to even fathom how how
Speaker:that's going to be possible
Speaker:but if you talk about how
Speaker:about lose one to two
Speaker:pounds a week then most
Speaker:everybody will say yeah
Speaker:that sounds doable so it's
Speaker:the same with coaching
Speaker:precision it's like okay um
Speaker:say if there is uh the
Speaker:problem just like I did
Speaker:with uh going home you know
Speaker:or working the extra hours
Speaker:that you you are not really
Speaker:compensated for
Speaker:Say if you're working extra
Speaker:four hours a day,
Speaker:how about we'll set it to
Speaker:three and a half hours first?
Speaker:And so that seems to be reachable for now.
Speaker:And of course that's kind of
Speaker:the shorter term goal.
Speaker:So you set kind of like your goal
Speaker:And,
Speaker:and then you you kind of work little
Speaker:bit by little bit to your ultimate goal.
Speaker:And in the meantime,
Speaker:I think it's also important to remember,
Speaker:and I share with my
Speaker:physician clients to it's why,
Speaker:why are you doing it?
Speaker:You know, for me,
Speaker:it's I want to finish work on time.
Speaker:So I get to spend more time
Speaker:with my family.
Speaker:So that's my why.
Speaker:So for you know, other physicians,
Speaker:they may be
Speaker:maybe like they want to go
Speaker:to their yoga class or, you know,
Speaker:something else.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:so I think it's just so important to
Speaker:remember why you want to do it.
Speaker:And, um, uh,
Speaker:because that you have to
Speaker:remember throughout the day
Speaker:that it's like, okay,
Speaker:so let me get back to
Speaker:trying different things,
Speaker:doing different things and
Speaker:make it work somehow.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And I was, you,
Speaker:You beat me like up to the punch because,
Speaker:you know, I wanted to talk about mindset.
Speaker:And that's what you said.
Speaker:Like, you know,
Speaker:it really is about perception.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:it's I've heard you say more
Speaker:often on this conversation
Speaker:of like having twenty
Speaker:twenty five patient load
Speaker:and being full at the end of the day and.
Speaker:being happy and being joyful.
Speaker:And so a friend of mine has
Speaker:reminded me around just
Speaker:simple phrases that we can
Speaker:say to ourself.
Speaker:And one of those to me is like,
Speaker:instead of saying I need to, or I have to,
Speaker:you say I get to.
Speaker:I get to do this, right?
Speaker:I get to see twenty patients
Speaker:a day and the perception of
Speaker:changing their lives in
Speaker:little micro moments is
Speaker:exactly how we train our
Speaker:patients to move into
Speaker:lifestyle changes and I
Speaker:always say in one of my
Speaker:good friends become the
Speaker:product of your product and
Speaker:to me that means like if you're
Speaker:if you're doing your own self care,
Speaker:I actually put it in my work calendar.
Speaker:So my self care routine is
Speaker:in my work calendar because
Speaker:I'm in the business of
Speaker:helping people be well.
Speaker:And so for me,
Speaker:it's easy to frame it up like, oh,
Speaker:I'm going to work by doing
Speaker:my meditation and doing my
Speaker:self care and changing my
Speaker:perception and doing my
Speaker:journaling because I teach
Speaker:people how to do that to help themselves.
Speaker:So I love how you're like, you know,
Speaker:reminding us all about the
Speaker:micro moments you know
Speaker:these big things that are
Speaker:on this side of things but
Speaker:it's like no just show up
Speaker:just show up just do a
Speaker:little bit like change your
Speaker:change one little thing and
Speaker:and see how that builds
Speaker:because that's really how
Speaker:transformation works it's
Speaker:sometimes it's this one big
Speaker:huge event but a lot more
Speaker:often than not it's the
Speaker:micro moments that stack up and add up
Speaker:And those are the easy things to do,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:It's like, oh, just, you know,
Speaker:take thirty minutes that
Speaker:you would normally do this
Speaker:and shift it over here to
Speaker:something that's more
Speaker:regenerative for you.
Speaker:So I love that.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker:And I think that, you know,
Speaker:the concept of or the
Speaker:belief that I have no time,
Speaker:it's a very questionable one.
Speaker:And, you know,
Speaker:I've started to question it.
Speaker:It's like, is it true?
Speaker:We all have the same amount
Speaker:of time is what I say to people.
Speaker:We all have the exact amount of,
Speaker:in this reality,
Speaker:in this time space reality,
Speaker:we all have the same amount.
Speaker:So we're choosing, right?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:It's like, what do you choose to do?
Speaker:It's like,
Speaker:how do you prioritize your life?
Speaker:You know, as you mentioned,
Speaker:I think it's so good that, you know,
Speaker:you plan, you know,
Speaker:in your calendar to have
Speaker:the self-care routine.
Speaker:And I think for me, too, it's like,
Speaker:you know, I always, you know,
Speaker:try to do my exercise.
Speaker:I mean, maybe at different times,
Speaker:but it's usually after work
Speaker:that I do my exercise at home.
Speaker:I always have my meditation time,
Speaker:my quiet time.
Speaker:And I think those are
Speaker:important things because if
Speaker:I tell patients to do these things,
Speaker:I better be doing it myself.
Speaker:I better be the one
Speaker:believing what I'm preaching.
Speaker:So I think I always share with patients
Speaker:patients or physicians,
Speaker:it's what I believe and what I practice.
Speaker:So otherwise,
Speaker:it's like I'm just making
Speaker:things up myself.
Speaker:So I think it's just so important.
Speaker:But the self-care routine,
Speaker:I think it's so important.
Speaker:I'm still working on the sleep part.
Speaker:I think I have a sleeping
Speaker:doctor friend that she
Speaker:recommends seven hours of sleep.
Speaker:I'm not quite there yet, but
Speaker:at the same maybe six and a
Speaker:half hours now.
Speaker:But I do feel rested.
Speaker:I think part of it is
Speaker:because of how I feel emotionally,
Speaker:because I feel, as you mentioned, full.
Speaker:And I choose to feel grateful.
Speaker:I choose to be content.
Speaker:And it's really about how we
Speaker:think about things.
Speaker:I also share usually, I mean,
Speaker:a lot of times it's like when you wake up,
Speaker:what is your first thought
Speaker:in the morning?
Speaker:If you think that, oh,
Speaker:it's another day that I
Speaker:have to go to work.
Speaker:It's like when you hear it in your head,
Speaker:it's kind of like you're dreading it.
Speaker:You feel the dread.
Speaker:And instead, if you think of it this way,
Speaker:it's like, oh,
Speaker:it's a new day that I get
Speaker:to make a difference.
Speaker:or um it is going to be a
Speaker:good day well my sentence
Speaker:my favorite sentence for
Speaker:myself it's it's going to
Speaker:be a good day no matter
Speaker:what happens so so that you
Speaker:know that kind of like I
Speaker:feel hopeful I feel kind of
Speaker:a little excitement about
Speaker:the day it's so even if you
Speaker:know something goes wrong
Speaker:like if there are any
Speaker:weird surprises or accidents or anything,
Speaker:then I'm not going to have
Speaker:that affect how I feel.
Speaker:I'm going to make it work.
Speaker:And I share this with my
Speaker:staff too at work that, you know,
Speaker:today is going to be a good day.
Speaker:We're going to take care of the patients.
Speaker:We're going to go home on time.
Speaker:So I think that just by, you know,
Speaker:thinking and feeling differently,
Speaker:it just changes the whole day.
Speaker:That thinking, feeling, reframing.
Speaker:And I similarly, like with, you know, just,
Speaker:um, you know,
Speaker:visioning what my day will
Speaker:look like and put them up
Speaker:and understanding like, Hey,
Speaker:You know, today,
Speaker:literally every morning is the beginning,
Speaker:the rest of your life, right?
Speaker:There's the past is the past.
Speaker:You can't change it.
Speaker:So you can only work in the
Speaker:present moment.
Speaker:Like, Hey,
Speaker:today's going to be a great day.
Speaker:I love how you say when you
Speaker:do up for the greater good
Speaker:there for a reason it's
Speaker:there for a purpose.
Speaker:And so I love that.
Speaker:right is is it takes it
Speaker:takes positive energy to
Speaker:get people to be positive
Speaker:good people today and the
Speaker:process of like attracts
Speaker:like like you sweet about
Speaker:earlier is like having
Speaker:If you don't ride the bike,
Speaker:you're certainly not going
Speaker:to be able to ride the bike, right?
Speaker:And so the opposite holds true.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It's like if you believe
Speaker:you're going to have an amazing day,
Speaker:even in the way that you least expect it,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:You've got to let go of that
Speaker:attachment and move it forwards.
Speaker:about your you said you
Speaker:co-authored a new book
Speaker:right yes what is it uh
Speaker:made for more to talk to a
Speaker:little yes so my internet's uh
Speaker:Yeah, so Made for More Too,
Speaker:it's a book I co-authored
Speaker:with seventeen other
Speaker:physicians and it's
Speaker:compiled by Dr. Una Choku
Speaker:and Dr. Una for short.
Speaker:That's how she likes to be called.
Speaker:So this is a book about our own journey.
Speaker:So there are different doctors,
Speaker:including myself, just talk about how
Speaker:it is possible to practice
Speaker:medicine in your own terms.
Speaker:So there are physicians who
Speaker:are having their own private practices.
Speaker:There are coaches like me,
Speaker:someone who is selling
Speaker:their own products.
Speaker:And it's just about our journey,
Speaker:about how even in this pandemic,
Speaker:world of health care that
Speaker:needs a major overhaul,
Speaker:it's not like you have to
Speaker:wait till something big
Speaker:happens in the macro system.
Speaker:But individually,
Speaker:it's possible to do something different.
Speaker:And just like we talked about
Speaker:earlier on that, yes, you know,
Speaker:a lot of physicians are burnt out,
Speaker:a lot of physicians are overwhelmed.
Speaker:Most physicians are employed physicians,
Speaker:including myself.
Speaker:And, you know, maybe that's,
Speaker:that's the thing that you want to keep,
Speaker:you don't necessarily have
Speaker:to all of a sudden,
Speaker:go start your own private practice,
Speaker:if not,
Speaker:if that's not something that you
Speaker:want to do.
Speaker:But at the same time,
Speaker:it is possible to carve
Speaker:your life in a way that you
Speaker:want it to be.
Speaker:Just slowly, gradually, as we talked about,
Speaker:just little by little,
Speaker:you have a vision as a
Speaker:future you of what you want to be like,
Speaker:and you work backwards.
Speaker:to see, okay, you know,
Speaker:these are the steps that
Speaker:I'm taking to make it, you know,
Speaker:your dream life and also
Speaker:probably dream business or, you know,
Speaker:practicing in medicine.
Speaker:So because this is very,
Speaker:it's a unique collection of
Speaker:our own journey.
Speaker:So I really encourage everyone to read it,
Speaker:even non-physicians.
Speaker:No, I think,
Speaker:and it's important because we
Speaker:learn through story.
Speaker:And when we can attach to
Speaker:stories and seeing how
Speaker:other people have done it, right?
Speaker:That's a good, that's a,
Speaker:that's a beautiful way to,
Speaker:to learn about discovery.
Speaker:So where can people go get the book?
Speaker:Amazon.
Speaker:And it made the bestselling list.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:So bestselling lists on
Speaker:Amazon made for more to go
Speaker:ahead and grab it.
Speaker:What's next for you and
Speaker:shining with gratitude MD.
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:I would say that I'll continue to help
Speaker:more physicians and, uh,
Speaker:our one-on-one coaching program and, uh,
Speaker:I'm still working full time.
Speaker:So, um, I'm, I'm doing both,
Speaker:but I enjoy doing what I'm doing.
Speaker:And, um, um, maybe in the future,
Speaker:it may be something different.
Speaker:I may offer something different.
Speaker:I haven't thought of it yet,
Speaker:but I'm happy at where I am at right now.
Speaker:Um, and making connections,
Speaker:making new friends.
Speaker:And just, you know, spreading the word to,
Speaker:you know, let other physicians know that,
Speaker:hey, you know,
Speaker:charting does not have to
Speaker:be a life and in basket task can be done.
Speaker:on time and there is a way
Speaker:to practice medicine the
Speaker:way that you want to be.
Speaker:And before you think about
Speaker:quitting your job,
Speaker:I think that if you really want to
Speaker:leave your job,
Speaker:you leave it in kind of a more, you know,
Speaker:don't leave it because
Speaker:you're angry or in any of
Speaker:those unpleasant emotions,
Speaker:but really analyze the
Speaker:situation and see what you
Speaker:can do about it first to
Speaker:see what you can improve
Speaker:before you say that, oh, I'm leaving.
Speaker:Or, you know,
Speaker:you want to leave because of
Speaker:a better opportunity,
Speaker:not because you hate the job or, you know,
Speaker:something like that.
Speaker:So I think that is what I
Speaker:want to convey and want to
Speaker:spread the word about,
Speaker:especially for physicians.
Speaker:And I think in my medical practices,
Speaker:I just want to continue to
Speaker:see the patients and spread the joy,
Speaker:especially in the field of oncology,
Speaker:because I think that with
Speaker:serious diagnosis,
Speaker:there's always hope for something.
Speaker:Even if there's no hope for a cure,
Speaker:there is a hope for being comfortable.
Speaker:There's a hope for connection.
Speaker:And I always learn something every day,
Speaker:even from my patients.
Speaker:And I think my attitude of
Speaker:learning and growing every day,
Speaker:just like you mentioned earlier,
Speaker:it's just so important
Speaker:because we're never too old
Speaker:to learn something unless
Speaker:you label yourself to be
Speaker:So I think that being able
Speaker:to learn something new and
Speaker:just applying it to life,
Speaker:it's just what I guess
Speaker:being on earth is about.
Speaker:The connection, the learning, the growing,
Speaker:the collaborative effort of
Speaker:making life better for other people.
Speaker:So I think that's what I
Speaker:want to be my life to be like.
Speaker:Oh, it's great.
Speaker:Especially I...
Speaker:And I agree.
Speaker:And I think it's even in the midst of,
Speaker:you know, heavy diagnoses and heavy,
Speaker:you know, life altering conditions,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:And moving people through
Speaker:that and learning from
Speaker:the beauty of the humanity behind,
Speaker:especially because I love
Speaker:helping and treating and
Speaker:helping cancer patients in
Speaker:different ways.
Speaker:And I think they have a lot
Speaker:to teach us too, you know, and in moving,
Speaker:like just seeing how they
Speaker:embrace their perception in
Speaker:midst of these massive,
Speaker:because they're just so
Speaker:dear and true to my heart because,
Speaker:you know, I've gone from
Speaker:patient to provider in different ways.
Speaker:And I think it's just a
Speaker:beautiful way for you to
Speaker:kind of this talk of that
Speaker:because you're learning
Speaker:from them in such awesome, cool ways.
Speaker:And yes, we're always learning, always.
Speaker:Like there's nothing, we're human beings,
Speaker:divine beings on this planet to learn,
Speaker:to learn more and to be
Speaker:able to connect more and to
Speaker:be able to serve better and
Speaker:moving forward with that.
Speaker:This is a great, just lighthearted,
Speaker:beautiful framework for an episode.
Speaker:So thank you for that.
Speaker:As we're just kind of wrapping up here,
Speaker:go find her book,
Speaker:go check out Shining with Gratitude MD.
Speaker:Whether it's physician or patient, person,
Speaker:whatever, as we wrap up,
Speaker:is there like one thing you
Speaker:want people to understand
Speaker:And as we move into this new era,
Speaker:this new shift, like you said,
Speaker:in medicine and life,
Speaker:what's one thing you want
Speaker:people to grab from today's conversation?
Speaker:I think it is that we have
Speaker:more control than we think
Speaker:because we get to choose
Speaker:what to think about a situation.
Speaker:And the situation itself is
Speaker:neutral until we label it
Speaker:or until we have an opinion about it.
Speaker:So what we think really
Speaker:affects how we feel.
Speaker:So we can decide if we want
Speaker:to feel more neutral about
Speaker:the situation or angry
Speaker:about the situation.
Speaker:It's really up to you, yourself.
Speaker:And I think with that is that,
Speaker:why not choose something more pleasant?
Speaker:And I think that with that
Speaker:approach in life, it's just really...
Speaker:I think it just really
Speaker:shines more light and more
Speaker:brightness to the world.
Speaker:And I think that, of course,
Speaker:there are things that you cannot control.
Speaker:There are still going to be
Speaker:things that are going to be upsetting.
Speaker:And I'm not saying that, oh, you know,
Speaker:with coaching or with
Speaker:thinking positive all the time,
Speaker:that it's not going to be
Speaker:having the other side or
Speaker:the negative aspects of
Speaker:emotions or events or anything like that.
Speaker:But it's just that you have more capacity
Speaker:to handle the unpleasant
Speaker:situations that you know
Speaker:you know what you can
Speaker:control it's you know how
Speaker:you think about things what
Speaker:you cannot control don't
Speaker:argue with it you know um
Speaker:just if it happens then we
Speaker:know how to deal with it
Speaker:and always ask for help and
Speaker:I think that's a really
Speaker:important thing it's like
Speaker:you know when you're stuck
Speaker:don't deal with it alone ask for help
Speaker:No, that's beautiful.
Speaker:Good, good,
Speaker:good way to wrap this up
Speaker:because I believe the same
Speaker:thing is like it does.
Speaker:We do have choice.
Speaker:We always have choice.
Speaker:And and and when we when we need help,
Speaker:we should know where we need to help from.
Speaker:So this is beautiful.
Speaker:Thank you so much, Dr. Mary.
Speaker:This was a great, great,
Speaker:just beautiful episode.
Speaker:I was really happy that you
Speaker:were able to serve the way
Speaker:that you serve and get on
Speaker:the show and tell people how they can,
Speaker:and physicians,
Speaker:how they can lead a more joyous life,
Speaker:even in the midst of
Speaker:the things that they may or
Speaker:may not be serving with.
Speaker:So thank you so much.
Speaker:I really appreciated this.
Speaker:Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker:That's a wrap, everyone.
Speaker:Until next time, stay well.
